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To: kosta50

you are denying the obvious intent of all the stories preceding and following the text in question. it is a basic principle of hermeneutics. Nothing I can do about that except take it into account when reading your positions.


416 posted on 07/10/2010 11:47:01 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins; kosta50
Having spent some time with this “ego eimi” question, I have to say kosta has it right. There simply is no way to make Jesus answer at John 8:58 a quote or reference to Ex. 3:14. To try to do is not only bad translation, it's bad grammar.
If it were not then the formerly blind man of John 9:9 would be quoting Ex. also as he plainly identifies himself saying “ego eimi”.
417 posted on 07/11/2010 12:07:33 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: xzins
Nothing I can do about that except take it into account when reading your positions

I am in agreement with you on the hermeneutics, namely that the intent and the spirit of the Gospel of John is to show that Jesus is the Greek pagan Logos and therefore the literal Son of God (in this case, the God of Israel), rather than an anointed human warrior-king of the Jewish tradition (anointed = meshiyah in Hebrew or christos in Greek, a human title). But the author (of John) goes about it in a way that doesn't fit very well with how it is written.

I mean, it is undeniable that John 8:58 attempts to create a scenario in which Jesus is equating himself the Yahweh, but he is not saying what the Old Testament God says about himself.

The way it looks in Greek, Jesus is simply saying that he lived before Moses (and the reaction of the Pharisees reflect their understanding of his claim that way), not that he pre-existed the world!

Ego eimi (Jn 8:58) simply means I am. On the other hand, ego eimi ho on (Ex 3:14, LXX) means I am the Existence. In Hebrew version (Ex 3:14, MT), the expression ehyer (I am becoming) doesn't fit what Jesus says in Jn 8:58 tense-wise.

"I am" and "I am becoming" is not the same thing; otherwise Jesus would have said "I am becoming" instead of the simple "I am."

Thus, instaed of saying "before Moses was, I am," Jesus would have said "before Moses was, I am becoming," the way Ex 3;14 (MT) reads "tell the sons of Israel, I Am Becoming [ehyer] sent you," or in Ex 3:14 (LXX) "tell the sons of Israel The Existence [ο ων, ho on] sent you."

The fact that English Bibles conflate "I am" with "I am becoming" in the Hebrew text (as well as the "I am" with "I am the Existence" in the Greek version) simply means that the Bibles were "harmonized" to mean one and the same thing, to fit the intent if not the grammar; hence the 'concordance," a man-made, and forced end result. The text is altered to fit the doctrine and not the other way around.

426 posted on 07/11/2010 8:39:09 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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