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To: xzins
Nothing I can do about that except take it into account when reading your positions

I am in agreement with you on the hermeneutics, namely that the intent and the spirit of the Gospel of John is to show that Jesus is the Greek pagan Logos and therefore the literal Son of God (in this case, the God of Israel), rather than an anointed human warrior-king of the Jewish tradition (anointed = meshiyah in Hebrew or christos in Greek, a human title). But the author (of John) goes about it in a way that doesn't fit very well with how it is written.

I mean, it is undeniable that John 8:58 attempts to create a scenario in which Jesus is equating himself the Yahweh, but he is not saying what the Old Testament God says about himself.

The way it looks in Greek, Jesus is simply saying that he lived before Moses (and the reaction of the Pharisees reflect their understanding of his claim that way), not that he pre-existed the world!

Ego eimi (Jn 8:58) simply means I am. On the other hand, ego eimi ho on (Ex 3:14, LXX) means I am the Existence. In Hebrew version (Ex 3:14, MT), the expression ehyer (I am becoming) doesn't fit what Jesus says in Jn 8:58 tense-wise.

"I am" and "I am becoming" is not the same thing; otherwise Jesus would have said "I am becoming" instead of the simple "I am."

Thus, instaed of saying "before Moses was, I am," Jesus would have said "before Moses was, I am becoming," the way Ex 3;14 (MT) reads "tell the sons of Israel, I Am Becoming [ehyer] sent you," or in Ex 3:14 (LXX) "tell the sons of Israel The Existence [ο ων, ho on] sent you."

The fact that English Bibles conflate "I am" with "I am becoming" in the Hebrew text (as well as the "I am" with "I am the Existence" in the Greek version) simply means that the Bibles were "harmonized" to mean one and the same thing, to fit the intent if not the grammar; hence the 'concordance," a man-made, and forced end result. The text is altered to fit the doctrine and not the other way around.

426 posted on 07/11/2010 8:39:09 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
The way it looks in Greek, Jesus is simply saying that he lived before Moses (and the reaction of the Pharisees reflect their understanding of his claim that way), not that he pre-existed the world!

Kosta, but you ignore both John's preamble (and the Logo was God) and his summation:

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Any "ego emi" outside of the immediate context, the gospel of john context, and the johannin context is simply not going to arrive at a legitimate conclusion. It would be like my taking your words and ignoring all our past discussions.

430 posted on 07/11/2010 8:46:43 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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