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To: kosta50
“Yes, operative in a sense that he was merely speaking through them as through megaphones”

Not so. God's spirit gave unusual physical strength to Samson. (Judges 14:19) God's spirit gave skill to the craftsmen constructing the Tabernacle. (Ex. 32:1-11) God's spirit enabled Simeon to prophesy (Luke 2:25-27) Men wrote Scripture by God's spirit. (2 Peter 1:20) No megaphones.

“They were not yet “born again” so as to be able to repent.”

Half right is also half wrong. They were not yet ‘born again’, yes.
The pattern was repent, baptism, receive spirit. (Acts 2:38)

“But the drama told in the Bible shows that he chose a specific chain of events, time, places and individuals in order to do that. Otherwise you have God second-guessing his own creation.”

No “otherwise”. A false conclusion with a false base.
Adam was condemned not because it was part of God's plan that he sin but, ‘because he listened to his wife's voice’
(Gen. 3:17) God then responds to Adam's free will choice.

Might Adam have not ‘listened to his wife's voice’? Of course as God says what He now does is ‘becasue”, a result of, due to Adam's action.
Was it part of His plan for Adam to sin? No.

“That does not change the basic theme of the Bible drama that everything happens according to God's plan, when, where and by whom God willed it, even if some players spoke in tems of their free will. None of us thinks we are walking on a giant ball called the Earth. From our perspective, the earth is deifnitely flat. The big picture, however, says otherwise”

Then everyone who thought they were making choices was deceived, mistaken? Moses when he chose to side with the Israelites? Joshua, when he spoke for himself before the whole nation? Elijah, when he told the Israelites to ‘quit limping along on two opinions, but to choose Jehovah or Baal’?

Why that the Almighty's ability to accomplish His will with or without human cooperation, despite anyone’s free will decisions would be called “second guessing his own creation” is a mystery.

“From the human point of view. Yet, the concept of God's immutable and perfect plan leads one to admit that everything that happens, every action, every event, is what God willed, or else God is not in control. He wrote the script and actors merely play their part, or else the Bible drama happened by chance. The free will in this case is an illusion”

The ability of humans to choose between one course of action and another is also God's viewpoint. The Israelites could choose to accept God's covenant as He said at Ex. 19:1-9, “IF you will obey my voice THEN you will become...”
They choose, God acts according to their choice. His word, His view point. Just as Moses, by God's spirit, set out the choices available at Deut. 30:15, “life and good or death and bad, blessing or malediction, their choice.

“Yet, the concept of God's immutable and perfect plan leads one to admit........”

Why would it lead one to assume that allowing humans free will would somehow mean God was not in control when the examples given of humans being given a choice by God in no way frustrated His plans or took control from Him?

“He wrote the script and actors merely play their part, or else the Bible drama happened by chance.”

Again, a false choice and one not supported by what the Bible says.

“The free will in this case is an illusion.”

And a false conclusion. Why would we assume God wants us to act on an “illusion”?

1,153 posted on 07/18/2010 12:12:12 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change; Dr. Eckleburg
Not so. God's spirit gave unusual physical strength to Samson...No megaphones.

I was referring to your specific reference of Apostle being sent to preach and the Spirit speaking through them.

The pattern was repent, baptism, receive spirit. (Acts 2:38)

Sure seems that way, but that's not what is taught. Dr. E, your comments?

Adam was condemned not because it was part of God's plan that he sin but, ‘because he listened to his wife's voice’ (Gen. 3:17) God then responds to Adam's free will choice.

Sure sounds like God is waiting a man's table. Whatever man decides, God goes along. Strange theology. Dr. E, your opinion?

Was it part of His plan for Adam to sin? No.

Oh? He got caught by surprise then? Didn't he? Dr. E?

Then everyone who thought they were making choices was deceived, mistaken?

Yes and no, it seems. Our perception is a deception. If we put too much faith in our perception we believe an illusion. It is a mistake. The earth is not what it looks like to us. On a molecular and cosmic scale, all our perceptions are false.

We can't possibly know for sure what is driving us.

Moses when he chose to side with the Israelites?

How do you know it wasn't God "influencing" his decision? God did just about everything else. Dr. E?

Why that the Almighty's ability to accomplish His will with or without human cooperation, despite anyone’s free will decisions would be called “second guessing his own creation” is a mystery

Because you haven't explained how the Almighty might accomplish his Plan as he wills is if he is too busy accommodating every oneles' free will.

You say that God did not Plan for Adam to sin? So, then, God was wrong, because Adam went against his plan and sinned. Dr. E in your opinion did God plan for Adam to sin or did he just accept whatever Adam dished out?

The Israelites could choose to accept God's covenant as He said at Ex. 19:1-9, “IF you will obey my voice THEN you will become...”

That's not an if they don't then God has to scrap his plan, but "if you don't then I will bring evil upon you until you change your mind and do as I want you to do!"

Why would we assume God wants us to act on an “illusion”?

He doesn't. Everything in the Bible seems to suggest that he wants his people to follow his will and not their will (perhaps because their will is an illusion), unless their will is the same as his will.

1,160 posted on 07/18/2010 4:54:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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