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To: count-your-change
The holy spirit was operative...[in] the disciples when sent out, would have God's spirit speaking in them. (Luke chapter 1 and Matt. 10:20)

Yes, operative in a sense that he was merely speaking through them as through megaphones. They were not yet "born again" so as to be able to repent. The disciples did not receive the Spirit until Jesus breathed on them. (John 20:22)

Nope, God can accomplish His will no matter who does what.

But the drama told in the Bible shows that he chose a specific chain of events, time, places and individuals in order to do that. Otherwise you have God second-guessing his own creation.

Romans 2:4 was directed to those (”O man, whoever you are”) who were going receive an adverse judgment for their actions unless they repented

That does not change the basic theme of the Bible drama that everything happens according to God's plan,  when, where and by whom God willed it, even if some players spoke in tems of their free will. None of us thinks we are walking on a giant ball called the Earth. From our perspective, the earth is deifnitely flat. The big picture, however, says otherwise.

As Joshua said to the nation of Israel, God's covenant people, ‘choose for yourselves whom you will serve’ but he was going to serve God. (Josh. 24:15)...Lots of free will there

From the human point of view. Yet, the concept of God's immutable and perfect plan leads one to admit that everything that happens, every action, every event, is what God willed, or else God is not in control. He wrote the script and actors merely play their part, or else the Bible drama happened by chance. The free will in this case is an illusion.

1,134 posted on 07/18/2010 7:31:35 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
“Yes, operative in a sense that he was merely speaking through them as through megaphones”

Not so. God's spirit gave unusual physical strength to Samson. (Judges 14:19) God's spirit gave skill to the craftsmen constructing the Tabernacle. (Ex. 32:1-11) God's spirit enabled Simeon to prophesy (Luke 2:25-27) Men wrote Scripture by God's spirit. (2 Peter 1:20) No megaphones.

“They were not yet “born again” so as to be able to repent.”

Half right is also half wrong. They were not yet ‘born again’, yes.
The pattern was repent, baptism, receive spirit. (Acts 2:38)

“But the drama told in the Bible shows that he chose a specific chain of events, time, places and individuals in order to do that. Otherwise you have God second-guessing his own creation.”

No “otherwise”. A false conclusion with a false base.
Adam was condemned not because it was part of God's plan that he sin but, ‘because he listened to his wife's voice’
(Gen. 3:17) God then responds to Adam's free will choice.

Might Adam have not ‘listened to his wife's voice’? Of course as God says what He now does is ‘becasue”, a result of, due to Adam's action.
Was it part of His plan for Adam to sin? No.

“That does not change the basic theme of the Bible drama that everything happens according to God's plan, when, where and by whom God willed it, even if some players spoke in tems of their free will. None of us thinks we are walking on a giant ball called the Earth. From our perspective, the earth is deifnitely flat. The big picture, however, says otherwise”

Then everyone who thought they were making choices was deceived, mistaken? Moses when he chose to side with the Israelites? Joshua, when he spoke for himself before the whole nation? Elijah, when he told the Israelites to ‘quit limping along on two opinions, but to choose Jehovah or Baal’?

Why that the Almighty's ability to accomplish His will with or without human cooperation, despite anyone’s free will decisions would be called “second guessing his own creation” is a mystery.

“From the human point of view. Yet, the concept of God's immutable and perfect plan leads one to admit that everything that happens, every action, every event, is what God willed, or else God is not in control. He wrote the script and actors merely play their part, or else the Bible drama happened by chance. The free will in this case is an illusion”

The ability of humans to choose between one course of action and another is also God's viewpoint. The Israelites could choose to accept God's covenant as He said at Ex. 19:1-9, “IF you will obey my voice THEN you will become...”
They choose, God acts according to their choice. His word, His view point. Just as Moses, by God's spirit, set out the choices available at Deut. 30:15, “life and good or death and bad, blessing or malediction, their choice.

“Yet, the concept of God's immutable and perfect plan leads one to admit........”

Why would it lead one to assume that allowing humans free will would somehow mean God was not in control when the examples given of humans being given a choice by God in no way frustrated His plans or took control from Him?

“He wrote the script and actors merely play their part, or else the Bible drama happened by chance.”

Again, a false choice and one not supported by what the Bible says.

“The free will in this case is an illusion.”

And a false conclusion. Why would we assume God wants us to act on an “illusion”?

1,153 posted on 07/18/2010 12:12:12 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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