Another vicious, inaccurate, and contradictory New York Times attack on Pope Benedict

catholicculture.org ^ | July 2, 2010 | Phil Lawler

[xzins]

sorry, but I’m right. it is “eigo eimi.”

you’ve simply typed out what some translator chose for some bible translation

[xzins]

A-G, I’m looking at the text online at virtualseminary.com and for John 6:20 it’s ego eimi in the TR, the WH, and the Byz

WH: (Greek NT - W-H ) John 6:20 o de legei autois egw eimi mn fobeisthe

[xzins]

all amusing, but all people with an agenda. the text is what it is and “ego eimi” = “I am”

[Alamo-Girl]

Jesus only claims he was around before Moses.

To the contrary,

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. – John 17:5

Based on our past conversations I expect you now to come back and say that Jesus only claims He was around 4 billion or 13.7 billion years depending on how you read the word "world."

On another point:

me: And again,

I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:30

you: Wonderful, what about "my Father is greater than I"? (same John, different chapter)

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God. And they are different Persons.

The Father is not begotten. Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. - John 1:18

And again,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

And again,

And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. - Revelation 4:2

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:9-11

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

You claim that God never says anything like that, i.e. I AM.

To the contrary,

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. – Revelation 1:8

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... - Revelation 1:11

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. - Revelation 21:6

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. - Revelation 22:13

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

God's Name is I AM.

[xzins]

some might want to jump into this “ego eimi” discussion.

[xzins]

without getting into another whole-blown discussion of the Trinity, your understanding of the unity of the Godhead is on the money. It’s combining the triunity with the unity that’s always a stickler. :>)

[Alamo-Girl]

You are right of course. Now to figure out where I found the Greek phrase transposed in John 6:20...

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

[xzins]

If you find it, let me know.

[xzins]

What’s fascinating about the “ego eimi” in John 6:20 is:

1. It’s a stand alone ego eimi accompanying an absolutely astonishing miracle demonstrating power over creation itself. (I AM)

2. It’s been subject to a host of scholars trying to smooth it over, so it’s lost in the shuffle as one scans the English looking for “I am” statements. That makes this one an exciting addition.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen!!!

Thank you for those wonderful insights, dear brother in Christ!

(I'm still trying to locate the transposed source - I'll let you know when I find it.)

[count-your-change]

No the word order doesn't matter. The point is there is no title or name here just a simple reply of identification as any one of us might do, “hello’ it's me!”.

To translate John 6:20 as “I Am” in English violates the sense of the Scripture and good translation. Jesus is telling the disciples why they should not be afraid, he is there, it's him. It is I.

[count-your-change]

More accurately, I just copied and pasted from the Douay translation.

[Alamo-Girl]

Yep, it was my bad altogether. I pulled it from here without looking up to see the TR.

Jeepers... Sorry about that.

[xzins]

Yep, I see how in their chart they reverse the order.

BTW, cyc, it’s not a “reply.” Look at the text again. Jesus is not replying to anything they’ve asked Him. He has “read” their fear and is claiming authority over creation and over their fear. Young’s literal has it right with the exception of his parenthetical addition where he, too, tries to smooth it out.

In fact, this particular stand-alone “I am” pretty well proves for the fair-minded Alamo-girl’s contention about the “I am” in the “before Abraham” verse.

[kosta50]

To translate John 6:20 as “I Am” in English violates the sense of the Scripture and good translation.

I agree with you. I simply mentioned the word order for the record, as some (not you) seem to give it undue attention.

[xzins]

BTW, kosta, Bultmann is a known heretic from another era.

We need a new punk band: “Dead Heretics”

(although the kennedys would probably still fit in. :>)

[kosta50]

all amusing, but all people with an agenda. the text is what it is and “ego eimi” = “I am”

And you have none? Coming from a minister...amusing indeed. Ego eimi in John 9:14 is not "I am." Learn Greek.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. - Matthew 6:9

And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. - Deuteronomy 12:3-4

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. – Psalms 91:4

God's Name is I AM.

[xzins]

John 9:14 doesn’t have “ego eimi” in it at all. Keyboard error?

However, It IS “I am” wherever it shows up unless your contention is that there are synonyms for “ego” and for “eimi” that can be used side by side.