Another vicious, inaccurate, and contradictory New York Times attack on Pope Benedict

catholicculture.org ^ | July 2, 2010 | Phil Lawler

[Desdemona]

Today’s New York Times, with another front-page attack on Pope Benedict XVI, erases any possible doubt that America’s most influential newspaper has declared an editorial jihad against this pontificate. Abandoning any sense of editorial balance, journalistic integrity, or even elementary logic, the Times looses a 4,000-word barrage against the Pope: an indictment that is not supported even by the content of this appalling story. Apparently the editors are relying on sheer volume of words, and repetition of ugly details, to substitute for logical argumentation.

The thrust of the argument presented by the Times is that prior to his election as Pontiff, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger did not take decisive action to punish priests who abused children. Despite its exhaustive length, the story does not present a single new case to support that argument. The authors claim, at several points in their presentation, that as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), Cardinal Ratzinger had the authority to take action. But then, again and again, they quote knowledgeable Church officials saying precisely the opposite.

The confusion over lines of authority at the Vatican was so acute, the Times reports, that in the year 2000 a group of bishops met in Rome to present their concerns. That meeting led eventually to the change in policy announced by Pope John Paul II the following year, giving the CDF sole authority over disciplinary action against priests involved in sexual abuse. By general consensus the 2001 policy represented an important step forward in the Vatican’s handling of the problem, and it was Cardinal Ratzinger who pressed for that policy change. How does that sequence of events justify criticism of the future Pope? It doesn’t. But the facts do not deter the Times.

The Times writers show their bias with their flippant observation that when he might have been fighting sexual abuse, during the 1980s and 1990s Cardinal Ratzinger was more prominent in his pursuit of doctrinal orthodoxy. But then, while until 2001 it was not clear which Vatican office was primarily responsible for sexual abuse, it was clear that the CDF was responsible for doctrinal orthodoxy. Cardinal Ratzinger’s primary focus was on his primary job.

After laying out the general argument against the Vatican’s inaction—and implying that Cardinal Ratzinger was responsible for that inaction, disregarding the ample evidence that other prelates stalled his efforts—the Times makes the simply astonishing argument that local diocesan bishops were more effective in their handling of sex-abuse problems. That argument is merely wrong; it is comically absurd.

During the 1980s and 1990s, as some bishops were complaining about the confusion at the Vatican, bishops in the US and Ireland, Germany and Austria, Canada and Italy were systematically covering up evidence of sexual abuse, and transferring predator-priests to new parish assignments to hide them from scrutiny. The revelations of the past decade have shown a gross dereliction of duty on the part of diocesan bishops. Indeed the ugly track record has shown that a number of diocesan bishops were themselves abusing children during those years.

So how does the Times have the temerity to suggest that the diocesan bishops needed to educate the Vatican on the proper handling of this issue? The lead witness for the Times story is Bishop Geoffrey Robinson: a former auxiliary of the Sydney, Australia archdiocese, who was hustled into premature retirement in 2004 at the age of 66 because his professed desire to change the teachings of the Catholic Church put him so clearly at odds with his fellow Australian bishops and with Catholic orthodoxy. This obscure Australian bishop, the main source of support for the absurd argument advanced by the Times, is the author of a book on Christianity that has been described as advancing “the most radical changes since Martin Luther started the 16th-century Reformation.” His work has drawn an extraordinary caution from the Australian episcopal conference, which warned that Robinson was at odds with Catholic teaching on “among other things, the nature of Tradition, the inspiration of the Holy Scripture, the infallibility of the Councils and the Pope, the authority of the Creeds, the nature of the ministerial priesthood and central elements of the Church’s moral teaching." Bishop Robinson is so extreme in his theological views that Cardinal Roger Mahony (who is not ordinarily known as a stickler for orthodoxy) barred him from speaking in the Los Angeles archdiocese in 2008. This, again, is the authority on which the Times hangs its argument against the Vatican.

And even the Times story itself, a mess of contradictions, acknowledges:

Bishops had a variety of disciplinary tools at their disposal — including the power to remove accused priests from contact with children and to suspend them from ministry altogether — that they could use without the Vatican’s direct approval.

It is not clear, then, why the Vatican bears the bulk of the responsibility for the sex-abuse scandal. Still less clear is why the main focus of that responsibility should be Pope Benedict. On that score, too, the Times blatantly contradicts its own argument. Buried in the Times story—on the 3rd page in the print edition, in the 46th paragraph of the article—is a report on one Vatican official who stood out at that 2000 meeting in Rome, calling for more effective action on sexual abuse.

An exception to the prevailing attitude, several participants recalled, was Cardinal Ratzinger. He attended the sessions only intermittently and seldom spoke up. But in his only extended remarks, he made clear that he saw things differently from others in the Curia.

That testimony is seconded by a more reliable prelate, Archbishop Philip Wilson of Adelaide:

“The speech he gave was an analysis of the situation, the horrible nature of the crime, and that it had to be responded to promptly,” recalled Archbishop Wilson of Australia, who was at the meeting in 2000. “I felt, this guy gets it, he’s understanding the situation we’re facing. At long last, we’ll be able to move forward.”

The Times story, despite its flagrant bias and distortion, actually contains the evidence to dismiss the complaint. Unfortunately, the damage has already done before the truth comes out: that even a decade ago the future Pope Benedict was the solution, not part of the problem.

[Quix]

Faith and Deeds; Faith In Action
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? [NIV]	14-17Dear friends, do you think you'll get anywhere in this if you learn all the right words but never do anything? Does merely talking about faith indicate that a person really has it? [MSG VERS]	14What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]? [AMPLIFIED]
Quix: Can SUCH faith save him? Of course not! . . . BECAUSE . . . SUCH faith is not real faith! These sentences have nothing whatsoever to say about FAITH requiring works to equal Salvation!	MSG V: OF COURSE merely talking about faith is no reliable indication that a person has real faith! Cue Captain obvious!	AMP: Again: Can SUCH faith save his soul? OF COURSE NOT—BECAUSE IT’S NOT REAL FAITH! Again, these sentences have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do about adding works to faith to equal Salvation. I consider it absurd that anyone would twist, mangle and distort Scripture—even in their own minds—to pretend any other such UNBiblical nonsense.
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. NIV	For instance, you come upon an old friend dressed in rags and half-starved and say, "Good morning, friend! Be clothed in Christ! Be filled with the Holy Spirit!" and walk off without providing so much as a coat or a cup of soup—where does that get you? Isn't it obvious that God-talk without God-acts is outrageous nonsense? MSG	15If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day, 16And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do? 17So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
Wishing someone well who is in need is hollow caring and hollow faith; dead caring and dead faith—NOT REAL CARING AND NOT REAL FAITH. AGAIN, there is NOTHING in these sentences even hinting at faith requiring works to equal Salvation.	God talk without God actions has ALWAYS BEEN OUTRAGEOUS NONSENSE in GOD’S EYES. No other eyes really count.	OF COURSE inoperative, hollow, empty, absent, dead faith is devoid of power and uhhhh, DEAD! DOH! It’s a bit like 0.0. A trillion billion times 0.0 is still 0.0. Dead, empty, absent faith is always going to be dead, empty, absent faith. AGAIN, there is NOTHING here even hinting that faith requires works for Salvation.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? NIV	Not so fast. You can no more show me your works apart from your faith than I can show you my faith apart from my works. Faith and works, works and faith, fit together hand in glove. . 19-20Do I hear you professing to believe in the one and only God, but then observe you complacently sitting back as if you had done something wonderful? That's just great. Demons do that, but what good does it do them? Use your heads! Do you suppose for a minute that you can cut faith and works in two and not end up with a corpse on your hands? MSG	18But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith. 19You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man's hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]! 20Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless? AMPLIFIED
OF COURSE our faith is visible by our actions. As are all our values and priorities. AGAIN, NOTHING here says that faith has to have actions to equal Salvation. Demons believe, have knowledge that God is; that Jesus is the Savior. That kind of “faith” contains no Salvation for them any more than it would for anyone without a Saving knowledge/belief/confidence that Jesus is via HIS BLOOD IS THE SAVIOR and thereby THEIR SAVIOR..	OF COURSE faith and works fit together like a hand in a glove. This, too, says nothing about faith requiring works to equal Salvation. CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION! They were designed to be together. AND FAITH WAS DESIGNED, REQUIRED TO BE PRE-EMINENT AND FIRST—ELSE THE WORKS ARE A USED MONTHLY RAG.	OF COURSE FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. WE KNOW THAT! That says nothing at all about faith requiring works to EQUAL Salvation.
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. NIV	21-24Wasn't our ancestor Abraham "made right with God by works" when he placed his son Isaac on the sacrificial altar? Isn't it obvious that faith and works are yoked partners, that faith expresses itself in works? That the works are "works of faith"? The full meaning of "believe" in the Scripture sentence, "Abraham believed God and was set right with God," includes his action. It's that mesh of believing and acting that got Abraham named "God's friend." Is it not evident that a person is made right with God not by a barren faith but by faith fruitful in works? MSG	21Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?(C) . 22You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works. . 23And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend.(D) . 24You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes]. AMPLIFIED
These sentences are the most Roman Catholic sounding of the lot—particularly on the face of it. However, they are worth some thoughtful pondering and commentary. AND, these Scriptures ALSO MUST BE considered with the whole counsel of the whole rest of Scripture for any solid, congruent understanding. . "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, . AGAIN, BELIEF results in being credited as righteous. . . 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.NIV . What can this mean given the more than a dozen or so verses insisting that we are justified by FAITH ALONE? Can this one sentence negate all those other verses of SCRIPTURE—GOD’S WORD? NONSENSE! . The most plausible explanation is that James is saying here that active faith filled works are a demonstration of an ALIVE OPERANT SAVING FAITH—AS HE’S BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.	I think the MSG version says it best: It's that mesh of believing and acting that got Abraham named "God's friend." Is it not evident that a person is made right with God not by a barren faith but by faith fruitful in works? MSG . BECAUSE the works demonstrate that the faith is REAL, CONGRUENT, TRUE, ACTIVE, ACTUALLY GOD-BORN.	The AMPLIFIED adds a good insight: 22You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works. . Has not all our faith GROWN by the active exercise thereof? OF COURSE! YET, without an initial SAVING conviction, belief, FAITH-IN-GOD—there would have been absolutely no fruitful, God-breathed actions to follow of any eternal value whatsoever. . Again the Amplified gives us an added insight: Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God's will in thought and deed), and he was called God's friend. . BELIEVED IN, ADHERED TO, TRUSTED IN, RELIED ON GOD, AND THIS WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. . ACCOUNTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS—conformity to God’s will in thought and deed—THIS FOLLOWED THE INITIAL WILL, DECISION, CONVICTION TO TRUST, HAVE FAITH IN GOD. . AGAIN, the works prove the faith. The Salvation fostering faith PRECEDES ANY WORKS that have any value before God, at all.

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Hitting the shower. May try and finish afterwards. May not. Tired.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Mark, simply repeating a ridiculous accusation does not constitute proof of that ridiculous accusation.

Your understanding of history is seriously flawed.

[annalex]

Thank you for this effort.

there is NOTHING in these sentences [James 2:15-17] even hinting at faith requiring works to equal Salvation.

Of course it is. Accepting your premise, that there is a "real" faith and (what?) unreal faith, this sentence tells us that the real faith is accompanied by actions of charity. Real faith therefore requires works in order to be salvific.

Saving knowledge/belief/confidence that Jesus is via HIS BLOOD IS THE SAVIOR and thereby THEIR SAVIOR..

But when St. James drew the disctintion between real faith that "can save" and unreal faith, he did not base the distinction upon Jesus being personal Lord and Savior by His blood. He based the distinction on good works, consistently with Romans 2:6-10 and Matthew 25:31-46.

[in ref. to v. 23] BELIEF results in being credited as righteous

But the adjacent verses speak of the Abraham's actions working together with his faith; he wasn't therefore justified by his faith alone, but by faith combined with his actions (consider Hebrew 11:8 and surrounding verses where again actions are listed alongside faith itself).

What can this mean [James 2:24] given the more than a dozen or so verses insisting that we are justified by FAITH ALONE? Can this one sentence negate all those other verses of SCRIPTURE—GOD’S WORD?

Which are the verses anywhere in the Bible that insist that we are justified by faith alone?

But let me answer your question. It means that we are not justified by faith alone. It means what it says.

The most plausible explanation is that James is saying here that active faith filled works are a demonstration of an ALIVE OPERANT SAVING FAITH

I don't think that given the scripture that discusses salvation, faith, and works in good dozen verses we should look beyond what verse 24 plainly says, that we are not saved by faith alone. However, playing along with your distinction of real and unreal faith, this concludes that real faith that saves is faith accompanied by works, and the other kind of faith is unreal and unsaving.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing those beautiful Scriptures, dear brother in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

My "two cents" ...

It is not faith when one covers his ears, jumps up and down, humming and thinking to himself "I believe." That is self-will (I choose to believe) but it is not faith, not yet.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. - Mark 9:24

And believing that God IS is not faith.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. - James 2:19

And doing things is not faith, e.g. attending church, preaching, benevolence, obedience.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9

A person of faith takes God seriously. God is not a hypothesis to him, not a hope but real. He is always aware of God's presence. He doesn't try to hide from Him (as if he could) - he is glad that God sees and hears every thing he does, every thought.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. - John 3:19-20

He loves Him, believes Him and trusts Him. He is Spiritually minded not carnally minded.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9

He wants what God wants because he loves Him. Being loving, kind, forgiving and generous is as natural as breathing. And because he trusts God, he doesn't worry, doubt, fear, want, etc.

In Hebrews 11, called the hall of faith, all the named examples acted on their faith. Their faith was not dead.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26

The flight of the Hebrews from Egypt is a great example to me. God could have moved them miraculously to the promised land as He did here:

Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. - John 6:21

Or He could have led them on a direct path to the promised land, but instead God led them to the Red Sea and there the Egyptians closed in on them.

These people had just witnessed God's mighty miracles. They should not have been afraid. They should have been able to trust God, to stand on faith. Instead they feared.

And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. - Exodus 14:10

Obviously God did not "need" Moses to raise his arm in order to part the sea. The exercise had Moses acting out his faith. The red sea parted, and Moses' faith increased.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry [ground] through the midst of the sea. - Exodus 14:15-16

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry [land], and the waters were divided. - Exodus 14:21

The work was not faith but it was by faith and it increased his and their faith for having done so.

By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. - Hebrews 11:29

When I consider Scripture from Genesis to Revelation it is clear to me that God did not "need" this heaven and earth, we did. He doesn't change, we do.

It is as if this present heaven and earth exists so that we, His adopted children, can grow up which is to say, achieve faith, actual living faith not intellectual dead faith.

So, in my view, the real issue in the faith v. works debate amounts to who gets the credit for the acts of faith in a Christian's life. And I aver that all glory goes to God, not man.

The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. - Psalms 24:1

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God. - Mark 10:18

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[Natural Law]

"Your understanding of history is seriously flawed."

Mark, there was ample evidence posted in this thread to support your assertion that the Pilgrims killed Quakers and other non-Calvinists. Those that have actually studied history or even merely read the posts have a clear understanding of the facts. We need only ask ourselves a simple question; are we to believe our own eyes or bitter old cultists whose denials of history are as believable as the continued assertions by the Communist Chinese that the Tienanmen Square massacre never happened.

[blue-duncan]

“Obviously, the first step toward the state of hope is baptism, or else why would one skip the regeneration of new birth and yet obey the rest of the Church’s proposition?”

Hope is not a “state” but grace given to believers by the Holy Spirit when He quickens them being dead in their trespasses and sin and they then trust in Jesus for salvation. It is not a result of being baptized or anything they do or did. It is all by the grace of God. As I said, hope is and in a person and by the Holy Spirit.

“works will be judged but not his salvation, (1 Cor. 3:13-15), “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

“That passage explains that the elect undergo purgatorial cleansing before entering Heaven, because not all their works are perfect. It does not explain how the elect are separated from the reprobate; that is according to their works.”

There is no “purgatorial cleansing” before entering heaven. Paul says “rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” or “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better”. For the believer it is an immediate presence with the Lord on death. The judging is of the intent of the works (Psa 44:21, “Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart”) and those works done for God’s glory (“Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward”) shall be rewarded and the rest of “good works” shall be dismissed.

However, there is no guilt or punishment except for disappointing the “Consuming Fire” for there is no condemnation for believers. Rom. 8:1, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

2Cr 5:1-11, “For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord (Phil. 1:21-23, ‘For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:’). Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

Neither the Mt 25:31:46 passage nor the Rom. 2 passage apply to believers. The church is never referred to as “nations” and the judgment of the works of believers takes place at their individual deaths, not corporately. Rom. 2 is part of Paul’s explanation of “all have sinned” that starts with 1:18 and runs through 3:20. He asserts that there is no excuse because of general revelation (nature), the law (Jews), or conscience (gentiles). He is not teaching a works righteousness, and in fact concludes that “all have sinned” therefore works cannot atone for the sin. Notice in the Matthew 25 and Romans 2 passages there is no mention of faith or Jesus’ sacrifice for sin or salvation.

Let me ask you this. What does Jesus mean by “this cup”when He prays, “Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]”?

What does Jesus mean when He prays “It is finished”? (Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Hope is not a “state” but grace given to believers by the Holy Spirit when He quickens them being dead in their trespasses and sin and they then trust in Jesus for salvation. It is not a result of being baptized or anything they do or did. It is all by the grace of God. As I said, hope is and in a person and by the Holy Spirit.

AMEN! That is God's promise and Christ's assurance.

There is no “purgatorial cleansing” before entering heaven. Paul says “rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” or “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ

Amen. With the last breath a Christian is comforted by the knowledge that the next thing he will see is the face of Jesus Christ, our "promise of eternal inheritance," "incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for (us)."

Rom. 2 is part of Paul’s explanation of “all have sinned” that starts with 1:18 and runs through 3:20. He asserts that there is no excuse because of general revelation (nature), the law (Jews), or conscience (gentiles). He is not teaching a works righteousness, and in fact concludes that “all have sinned” therefore works cannot atone for the sin.

How much clearer does it need to be? Grace saves, and grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone according to the word of God alone.

Mercy and not debt.

[metmom]

Real faith therefore requires works in order to be salvific.

On the contrary, real faith is demonstrated to be real by the works. The faith is what saves, not the works.

Which are the verses anywhere in the Bible that insist that we are justified by faith alone?

Eph 2:8&9 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. (Many versions say "boast")

You don't work for a gift. You work for wages. Gifts are free and only have to be accepted.

[Quix]

there is NOTHING in these sentences [James 2:15-17] even hinting at faith requiring works to equal Salvation.

Of course it is. Accepting your premise, that there is a "real" faith and (what?) unreal faith, this sentence tells us that the real faith is accompanied by actions of charity. Real faith therefore requires works in order to be salvific.

NOT AT ALL! ". . . in order to be salvivic . . ." is an RC fantasy, falsehood, heresy.

REAL FAITH DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING TO BE SALVIVIC--AS THE THIEF ON THE CROSS DEMONSTRATED.

REAL FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY WORKS BECAUSE IT IS REAL FAITH! That not accompanied by earnest hearted fitting works in a right attitude--is simply not real faith at all--and therefore, not related to Salvation at all. The works is merely the EVIDENCE of the faith and an earning of Heavenly REWARDS--NOT an earning of Salvation in the least--that would be an INSULT to the Blood of Christ.

Saving knowledge/belief/confidence that Jesus is via HIS BLOOD IS THE SAVIOR and thereby THEIR SAVIOR..

But when St. James drew the disctintion between real faith that "can save" and unreal faith, he did not base the distinction upon Jesus being personal Lord and Savior by His blood. He based the distinction on good works, consistently with Romans 2:6-10 and Matthew 25:31-46.

HE WAS 'MERELY' ARTICULATING THE EVIDENCE for REAL FAITH--not the REQUIREMENT! GOODNESS!

ROM 2:6-10:
(The Message) SAYS IT BEST
5-8You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it's going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgment. Make no mistake: In the end you get what's coming to you—Real Life for those who work on God's side, but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!

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I don't see this saying a single thing about SALVATION. He's merely noting the obvious. THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY CHRIST'S BLOOD WILL DO THE GOOD WORKS ASSOCIATED WITH TRULY SAVED PEOPLE VS THOSE NOT TRULY SAVED continuing in their evil deeds with their 'NATURALLY' ASSOCIATED CONSEQUENCES.

9-11If you go against the grain, you get splinters, regardless of which neighborhood you're from, what your parents taught you, what schools you attended. But if you embrace the way God does things, there are wonderful payoffs, again without regard to where you are from or how you were brought up. Being a Jew won't give you an automatic stamp of approval. God pays no attention to what others say (or what you think) about you. He makes up his own mind.

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WHAT RESULTS IN DOING THINGS THE WAY GOD DOES THINGS??? WHO CHOOSES SUCH? Of COURSE--THOSE WHO HAVE REAL FAITH TO BEGIN WITH--AFTER IT IS GOD-BIRTHED WITHIN THEM! Those who don't, won't. That's a consistent message of the NT!

The AMPLIFIED PUTS IT:

Romans 2:6-10 (Amplified Bible)
6For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:(A)

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Nothing new here. OF COURSE, our deeds reflect on our HEAVENLY REWARDS! Some Heavenly mansions reportedly have bare walls and others magnificent art works. Some are more lavishly appointed and some more plainly appointed. It is certainly Biblical that WORKS RELATE TO HEAVENLY REWARDS. It is NOT Biblical that works yield Salvation.

7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [[a]springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [[b]the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life.

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OF COURSE HE WILL! Again, he is merely stating the obvious. There is NO LINGUISTIC REQUIREMENT that the above wording COULD ONLY MEAN that works PRODUCE SALVATION.

THE FAR MORE PLAUSIBLE INTERPRETATION CONSIDERING THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF SCRIPTURE IS that he's merely noting that FAITH PRODUCED WORKS TRANSITIONS INTO ETERNAL LIFE. OF COURSE! IF ONE IS KILLED IMMEDIATELY AFTER ACCEPTING CHRIST'S BLOOD COVERING AS THEIR SALVATION--THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE WITH ABSOLUTELY NO WORKS TO SHOW FOR IT! That's a "NO BRAINER!"

8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath. .

NO SURPRISE THERE. THOSE WITHOUT SAVING FAITH will NATURALLY continue to be disobedient to the Truth and responsive to wickedness . . . resulting in indignation and wrath--BECAUSE--AS OTHER SCRIPTURES assert--they BELIEVED NOT ON HIM who died for them.

9[And] there will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who [habitually] does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

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AGAIN--WHO habitually does evil? OF COURSE--THOSE WITHOUT SAVING FAITH! Another "No Brainer."

10But glory and honor and [heart] peace shall be awarded to everyone who [habitually] does good, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

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AGAIN--WHO DOES GOOD? ONLY THOSE WHO'S GOD-BIRTHED SAVING FAITH GENERATES THE WILL AND THE TO DO OF THE GOOD WORKS as another Scripture states.

Footnotes:
a.Romans 2:7 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
b.Romans 2:7 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
Cross references:
A.Romans 2:6 : Ps 62:12

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[in ref. to v. 23] BELIEF results in being credited as righteous

But the adjacent verses speak of the Abraham's actions working together with his faith; he wasn't therefore justified by his faith alone, but by faith combined with his actions (consider Hebrew 11:8 and surrounding verses where again actions are listed alongside faith itself).

NO! Scripture relentlessly articulates that it was PRECISELY THE FAITH OF SUCH PATRIARCH--AND ONLY THEIR FAITH THAT GOD ACCOUNTED TO THEM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their righteous deeds would have been impossible without the authentic faith. Even if they'd somehow mustered super human capacities to DO the good works without the faith--such works would not have counted as Righteousness.

What can this mean [James 2:24] given the more than a dozen or so verses insisting that we are justified by FAITH ALONE? Can this one sentence negate all those other verses of SCRIPTURE—GOD’S WORD?

Which are the verses anywhere in the Bible that insist that we are justified by faith alone?

Hebrews is full of them--for those with eyes to see.

But let me answer your question. It means that we are not justified by faith alone. It means what it says.

!WRONG! It does NOT mean we are justified by FAITH PLUS . . . It DOES mean what SCRIPTURE SAYS! It does NOT mean what RC/Vatican fantasies twist it to mean.

The most plausible explanation is that James is saying here that active faith filled works are a demonstration of an ALIVE OPERANT SAVING FAITH

I don't think that given the scripture that discusses salvation, faith, and works in good dozen verses we should look beyond what verse 24 plainly says,

Welllllllllllll, ain't that tidy! AVOID LOOKING AT THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF THE WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE because doing so would trash the Vatican twisted meaning of this one verse! CUTE!

that we are not saved by faith alone.

Scripture does not indicate anywhere that we are saved by FAITH PLUS . . .

However, playing along with your distinction of real and unreal faith,

'Tis NOT my distinction! It's a distinction THAT GOD ALMIGHTY THROUGH PAUL INSURED WAS PLAINLY IN SCRIPTURE! Pretending otherwise doesn't remove it--except, I guess in the shredded fantasy 'Bibles' of the Vatican system.

this concludes that real faith that saves is faith accompanied by works, and the other kind of faith is unreal and unsaving.

NOTHING NEW THERE. OF COURSE, Scripture is clear that REAL FAITH will AUTOMATICALLY, NATURALLY RESULT IN, BE ACCOMPANIED BY GOD-BIRTHED-REAL-FAITH-FOSTERED-AUTHENTIC, CREDIBLE GOOD WORKS resulting in Heavenly rewards--rewards having nothing to do with Salvation.

Mat 25:21-46 merely notes the same Biblical truth. SAVING FAITH IS FOLLOWED BY EARNEST WORKS DONE OUT OF A GOD-BIRTHED-FAITH-FILLED HEART/SPIRIT/MIND. Those without Saving faith have no works to earn anything and no Salvation to save them from hell because they HAD NO SAVING FAITH to begin with!

[small voice in the wilderness]

“Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for BY THE WORKS of the law shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED”. (Gal. 2:16).

[metmom]

Galatians 2: 16, 21 16 But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. ....21 I cast not away the grace of God. For if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain.

Galatians 3 1 O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish, that, whereas you began in the Spirit, you would now be made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so great things in vain? If it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?

6 As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. 7 Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing, that God justifieth the Gentiles by faith, told unto Abraham before: In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 Therefore they that are of faith, shall be blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that in the law no man is justified with God, it is manifest: because the just man liveth by faith.

[small voice in the wilderness]

There could be a whole series of books written about Faith without works for justification.

HEY, wait a minute! they HAVE been written..BY PAUL FROM DIRECT REVELATION FROM JESUS CHRIST!

[kosta50]

A person of faith takes God seriously. God is not a hypothesis to him, not a hope but real

But does that make him real? If I believe in pink unicorns (or Santa for that matter) they are "real" to me, but does that make them real or just imaginary?

[MarkBsnr]

Mark, simply repeating a ridiculous accusation does not constitute proof of that ridiculous accusation.

Since my claim is not a ridiculous accusation, and is borne out throughout American history including the personal and official histories of the colonies, including the most repugnant Massachusetts colonies, I see that this is proof enough. May I enquire which redacted American histories are your preference?

Your understanding of history is seriously flawed.

My understanding of history is that it is what actually happened. I understand that cults do not wish history to be factually reported. The LDS and the OPC are in lockstep on this one. In this case, every American textbook on the era indicates the depth of religious persecution visited on everyone else by the various Calvinist colonies. The most tolerant were the non Calvinist colonies in Rhode Island, Maryland and Pennsylvania. The Quakers were run out of Massachusetts at the point of the swords and from the barrel of the guns of their Calvinist oppressors. That is why there are so many of them in Pennsylvania. The Baptists were run out of every Calvinist settlement and forced South, again at the point of the Calvinist sword and the barrel of the Calvinist gun.

The 1st Amendment occured entirely due to the Calvinists practicing their own warped version of Christianity against the rest of humanity.

[MarkBsnr]

We need only ask ourselves a simple question; are we to believe our own eyes or bitter old cultists whose denials of history are as believable as the continued assertions by the Communist Chinese that the Tienanmen Square massacre never happened.

I do not believe that the good Dr. E. could possibly be a bitter old cultist. Nor will I deign to consider that she hates all of humanity except for the self-described elite without merit.

No. I consider that she has had the benefit of an American educational system that has completed deluded most of its students and it is up to us to educate people in reality, and not the delusions of the government of the day, as the Calvinists worship.

Governments such as Geneva, the American Calvinist colonies, and the worship of the monarchy of Britain which has given us not only the King James (the pederast) Bible, but also the repressive and repugnant Westminster Confession of Faith. If we cannot make the difference, then we can only trust to God Himself to break down the wall of unreality, not just for her, but for all those who self identify as Christians and who clearly are not.

[Natural Law]

"I understand that cults do not wish history to be factually reported. The LDS and the OPC are in lockstep on this one."

Don't say we weren't warned:

2 Peter 2

1 - There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 - Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.

3 - In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep.

[MarkBsnr]

Don't say we weren't warned: 2 Peter 2...

Wonderful verse. And very appropriate. Let us look to the example of Simon Magus for further clarification:

Acts 8: 9 A man named Simon used to practice magic 4 in the city and astounded the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. 10 All of them, from the least to the greatest, paid attention to him, saying, "This man is the 'Power of God' that is called 'Great.'" 11 They paid attention to him because he had astounded them by his magic for a long time, 12 but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. 13 Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip; and when he saw the signs and mighty deeds that were occurring, he was astounded.

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, 16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 5 17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.

18 6 When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money. 21 You have no share or lot in this matter, for your heart is not upright before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, your intention may be forgiven. 23 For I see that you are filled with bitter gall and are in the bonds of iniquity." 24 Simon said in reply, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me." 25 So when they had testified and proclaimed the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem and preached the good news to many Samaritan villages.

Would that the Church was able to contravene the unholy trinity (Luther, Calvin and Zwingli), with the strength and aid of the Holy Trinity (the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit). Alas that this curse is upon us, His Church. It is now fifteen generations old. God be praised, though; we are seeing the disintegration of His disobedient. And the coming unification of the Church. His Wisdom is greater than mine, and His patience greater as well...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Quakers were run out of Massachusetts at the point of the swords and from the barrel of the guns of their Calvinist oppressors. That is why there are so many of them in Pennsylvania.

That's the second time you've made this laughtable statement. Put up your evidence, or we'll just consider it more RC fiction.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You were told by the Religion Moderator not to post my remarks and then not ping me. Remember?

After a dozen reprimands by the RM are you still intent on breaking the rules?