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To: annalex; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; ...
there is NOTHING in these sentences [James 2:15-17] even hinting at faith requiring works to equal Salvation.

Of course it is. Accepting your premise, that there is a "real" faith and (what?) unreal faith, this sentence tells us that the real faith is accompanied by actions of charity. Real faith therefore requires works in order to be salvific.

NOT AT ALL! ". . . in order to be salvivic . . ." is an RC fantasy, falsehood, heresy.

REAL FAITH DOES NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING TO BE SALVIVIC--AS THE THIEF ON THE CROSS DEMONSTRATED.

REAL FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY WORKS BECAUSE IT IS REAL FAITH! That not accompanied by earnest hearted fitting works in a right attitude--is simply not real faith at all--and therefore, not related to Salvation at all. The works is merely the EVIDENCE of the faith and an earning of Heavenly REWARDS--NOT an earning of Salvation in the least--that would be an INSULT to the Blood of Christ.

Saving knowledge/belief/confidence that Jesus is via HIS BLOOD IS THE SAVIOR and thereby THEIR SAVIOR..

But when St. James drew the disctintion between real faith that "can save" and unreal faith, he did not base the distinction upon Jesus being personal Lord and Savior by His blood. He based the distinction on good works, consistently with Romans 2:6-10 and Matthew 25:31-46.

HE WAS 'MERELY' ARTICULATING THE EVIDENCE for REAL FAITH--not the REQUIREMENT! GOODNESS!

ROM 2:6-10:
(The Message) SAYS IT BEST
5-8You're not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it's going to blaze hot and high, God's fiery and righteous judgment. Make no mistake: In the end you get what's coming to you—Real Life for those who work on God's side, but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!

.

I don't see this saying a single thing about SALVATION. He's merely noting the obvious. THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY CHRIST'S BLOOD WILL DO THE GOOD WORKS ASSOCIATED WITH TRULY SAVED PEOPLE VS THOSE NOT TRULY SAVED continuing in their evil deeds with their 'NATURALLY' ASSOCIATED CONSEQUENCES.

9-11If you go against the grain, you get splinters, regardless of which neighborhood you're from, what your parents taught you, what schools you attended. But if you embrace the way God does things, there are wonderful payoffs, again without regard to where you are from or how you were brought up. Being a Jew won't give you an automatic stamp of approval. God pays no attention to what others say (or what you think) about you. He makes up his own mind.

.

WHAT RESULTS IN DOING THINGS THE WAY GOD DOES THINGS??? WHO CHOOSES SUCH? Of COURSE--THOSE WHO HAVE REAL FAITH TO BEGIN WITH--AFTER IT IS GOD-BIRTHED WITHIN THEM! Those who don't, won't. That's a consistent message of the NT!

The AMPLIFIED PUTS IT:

Romans 2:6-10 (Amplified Bible)
6For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:(A)

.

Nothing new here. OF COURSE, our deeds reflect on our HEAVENLY REWARDS! Some Heavenly mansions reportedly have bare walls and others magnificent art works. Some are more lavishly appointed and some more plainly appointed. It is certainly Biblical that WORKS RELATE TO HEAVENLY REWARDS. It is NOT Biblical that works yield Salvation.

7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [[a]springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [[b]the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life.

.

OF COURSE HE WILL! Again, he is merely stating the obvious. There is NO LINGUISTIC REQUIREMENT that the above wording COULD ONLY MEAN that works PRODUCE SALVATION.

THE FAR MORE PLAUSIBLE INTERPRETATION CONSIDERING THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF SCRIPTURE IS that he's merely noting that FAITH PRODUCED WORKS TRANSITIONS INTO ETERNAL LIFE. OF COURSE! IF ONE IS KILLED IMMEDIATELY AFTER ACCEPTING CHRIST'S BLOOD COVERING AS THEIR SALVATION--THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE WITH ABSOLUTELY NO WORKS TO SHOW FOR IT! That's a "NO BRAINER!"

8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath. .

NO SURPRISE THERE. THOSE WITHOUT SAVING FAITH will NATURALLY continue to be disobedient to the Truth and responsive to wickedness . . . resulting in indignation and wrath--BECAUSE--AS OTHER SCRIPTURES assert--they BELIEVED NOT ON HIM who died for them.

9[And] there will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who [habitually] does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

.

AGAIN--WHO habitually does evil? OF COURSE--THOSE WITHOUT SAVING FAITH! Another "No Brainer."

10But glory and honor and [heart] peace shall be awarded to everyone who [habitually] does good, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

.

AGAIN--WHO DOES GOOD? ONLY THOSE WHO'S GOD-BIRTHED SAVING FAITH GENERATES THE WILL AND THE TO DO OF THE GOOD WORKS as another Scripture states.

Footnotes:
a.Romans 2:7 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
b.Romans 2:7 Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.
Cross references:
A.Romans 2:6 : Ps 62:12

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[in ref. to v. 23] BELIEF results in being credited as righteous

But the adjacent verses speak of the Abraham's actions working together with his faith; he wasn't therefore justified by his faith alone, but by faith combined with his actions (consider Hebrew 11:8 and surrounding verses where again actions are listed alongside faith itself).

NO! Scripture relentlessly articulates that it was PRECISELY THE FAITH OF SUCH PATRIARCH--AND ONLY THEIR FAITH THAT GOD ACCOUNTED TO THEM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their righteous deeds would have been impossible without the authentic faith. Even if they'd somehow mustered super human capacities to DO the good works without the faith--such works would not have counted as Righteousness.

What can this mean [James 2:24] given the more than a dozen or so verses insisting that we are justified by FAITH ALONE? Can this one sentence negate all those other verses of SCRIPTURE—GOD’S WORD?

Which are the verses anywhere in the Bible that insist that we are justified by faith alone?

Hebrews is full of them--for those with eyes to see.

But let me answer your question. It means that we are not justified by faith alone. It means what it says.

!WRONG! It does NOT mean we are justified by FAITH PLUS . . . It DOES mean what SCRIPTURE SAYS! It does NOT mean what RC/Vatican fantasies twist it to mean.

The most plausible explanation is that James is saying here that active faith filled works are a demonstration of an ALIVE OPERANT SAVING FAITH

I don't think that given the scripture that discusses salvation, faith, and works in good dozen verses we should look beyond what verse 24 plainly says,

Welllllllllllll, ain't that tidy! AVOID LOOKING AT THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF THE WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE because doing so would trash the Vatican twisted meaning of this one verse! CUTE!

that we are not saved by faith alone.

Scripture does not indicate anywhere that we are saved by FAITH PLUS . . .

However, playing along with your distinction of real and unreal faith,

'Tis NOT my distinction! It's a distinction THAT GOD ALMIGHTY THROUGH PAUL INSURED WAS PLAINLY IN SCRIPTURE! Pretending otherwise doesn't remove it--except, I guess in the shredded fantasy 'Bibles' of the Vatican system.

this concludes that real faith that saves is faith accompanied by works, and the other kind of faith is unreal and unsaving.

NOTHING NEW THERE. OF COURSE, Scripture is clear that REAL FAITH will AUTOMATICALLY, NATURALLY RESULT IN, BE ACCOMPANIED BY GOD-BIRTHED-REAL-FAITH-FOSTERED-AUTHENTIC, CREDIBLE GOOD WORKS resulting in Heavenly rewards--rewards having nothing to do with Salvation.

Mat 25:21-46 merely notes the same Biblical truth. SAVING FAITH IS FOLLOWED BY EARNEST WORKS DONE OUT OF A GOD-BIRTHED-FAITH-FILLED HEART/SPIRIT/MIND. Those without Saving faith have no works to earn anything and no Salvation to save them from hell because they HAD NO SAVING FAITH to begin with!

370 posted on 07/09/2010 1:36:22 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!


396 posted on 07/09/2010 9:24:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom
I don't think you are saying anything new in this post compared to the previous post, so let me just make a general remark: the second part of James 2 is dedicated to the question of faith without works and declares such faith dead. It concludes squarely by saying that faith alone does not save. You cannot amplify, obfuscate, or use bigger fonts to get away from this.

That there is a real faith opposed to fake faith is true. The two are distinguished by the fact that man with real faith also does good works. So that sophistry about "real faith" does not prove that we are saved by faith alone. We are saved by faith that also produces good works, which is real faith. We are not saved by faith alone. You could, in sophistry, say that we are saved by real faith alone, but then you just substituted "faith and works" with "real faith" and stepped outside of the terminology chosen by the inspired writer of the Scripture.

A few additional remarks.

Another Protestant obfuscation is to say that faith automatically produces good works so it is faith that saves and works just automatically follow. This is also an empty sophistry. First, nowhere does the Bible say so. You can, of course, conclude from many passages, as well as from reason, that it is usually works and not naked faith that we see. This is a lesson one might derive from Hebrew 11. But Hebrew 11 -- or any other passage you might point to -- does not say that we are saved by faith alone. It says that we are saved by faith and freely chosen works of obedience and charity (examples: Hebrews 11, Matthew 25).

Mat 25:21-46 merely notes the same Biblical truth. SAVING FAITH IS FOLLOWED BY EARNEST WORKS DONE OUT OF A GOD-BIRTHED-FAITH-FILLED HEART/SPIRIT/MIND. Those without Saving faith have no works to earn anything

This is a good example of you reading one thing and thinking another. Nowhere does Mat 25:21-46 mention any kind of faith. In fact, it mentions the opposite: the just, in Verses 37-39 express absence of faith, -- they are surpised that the good works they did had anything to do with Christ. They are saved by their works. And conversely, the foolish virgins also have faith int he coming of their groom -- since they, too wait for him eagerly (Mt 25:3,8). Their fault which cost them the union with the Groom was lack of preparedness, a form of good works.

If you want me to comment on one particular point in your lengthy post that you feel I swept aside without comment, please point it out.

454 posted on 07/11/2010 11:00:41 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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