[kosta50]

That is simply incorrect: Judaism
In the Old Testament, the word 'Pardis' (a transliteration of the Persian word) occurs in Song 4:13, Eccl.2:5, and Neh. 2:8 meaning 'park'

In pre-apocalyoptic Judaism of the 2nd century BC the was used to mean garden or park, and it is borrowed form the Persian word of the same meaning.

As your source admits, it eventually became associated with the garden of Eden, (still meaning the garden or park), i.e. the paradis of Eden, and only so in the apocryphal works. Surely you don't consider the Apocalypse of Moses a genuine biblical text! It is a latter-day Christian work written in Greek based on some Jewish legends.

In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype

But you are using this out of context. Apocalypses are writings of the Essenes and are not considered mainline Judaism, and Talmud is a Christian-era rabbinic work, heavily influenced by Platonic beliefs.

When I speak of Judaism, I speak of pre-Christian, pre-Babylonian, genuine Judaism. It seems to me that most people have no idea that Judaism evolved and is not what it used to be in beginning (i.e. the Torah Judaism). Today, Judaism is a Pharisaical branch of Judaism that evolved in the Christian world, heavily influenced by mysticism, legends, Platonism ,etc.

When Jesus allegedly spoke to the good thief, there was no Talmud, and last time I checked he wasn't an Essene either.. Talmud doesn't come into existence until about 200 years after Christ and isn't completed until about 500 years after him. You can't just spill facts without their context.

See also, IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL - Jewish Encyclopeida. The ideas of the immortality of the soul and the abode of the blessed came much earlier to Jewish thought than you are portraying

No it didn't. let me quote form your own link:

[necromancy] was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).

In other words, genuine Judaism prohibited belief in immortal soul. The key word here is post-exilic, after the exile. In other words when Persial freed Israel form Babylonian captivity and influenced Judaism with Zoroastrianism, c. 5th century BC.

It seems to me some key words go right by you, or you don;t read the whole thing.

As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality

Duh!

It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality

It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2

Messianic hope is a latter-day development in Judaism. In fact it can be traced tom a VERY late development and influence of pagan Greek thought

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos"

So, today's Jewish belief in immortality or resurrection is a later development (limited only to Pharisaical Judaism, the form of Judaism that survived and morphed into rabbinic Judaism after 70 AD and the second Exile that produced Christian Era Talmud), and can be traced to Persian, Greek and Egyptian origins, none of which have anything to do with the genuine Mosaic Judaism.

[Diamond]

As your source admits, it eventually became associated with the garden of Eden, (still meaning the garden or park), i.e. the paradis of Eden, and only so in the apocryphal works. Surely you don't consider the Apocalypse of Moses a genuine biblical text! It is a latter-day Christian work written in Greek based on some Jewish legends.

Only so in the only so in the apocryphal works???

"In Second Temple era Judaism 'paradise' came to be associated with the Garden of Eden and prophesies of restoration of Eden. The Septuagint uses the word around 30 times, both of Eden, (Gen.2:7 etc.) and of Eden restored (Ezek. 28:13, 36:35) etc."

The last time I checked, Jesus was contemporaneous with the Second Temple era, and the Septuagint was was already in existence BEFORE Christ.

But you are using this out of context. Apocalypses are writings of the Essenes and are not considered mainline Judaism, and Talmud is a Christian-era rabbinic work, heavily influenced by Platonic beliefs.

When I speak of Judaism, I speak of pre-Christian, pre-Babylonian, genuine Judaism. It seems to me that most people have no idea that Judaism evolved and is not what it used to be in beginning (i.e. the Torah Judaism). Today, Judaism is a Pharisaical branch of Judaism that evolved in the Christian world, heavily influenced by mysticism, legends, Platonism ,etc.

When Jesus allegedly spoke to the good thief, there was no Talmud, and last time I checked he wasn't an Essene either.. Talmud doesn't come into existence until about 200 years after Christ and isn't completed until about 500 years after him. You can't just spill facts without their context.

What you think constitutes "genuine Judaism", i.e., "Torah Judaism" is not germane to the issue of when these ideas and terms were in use. What is relevant is that the word 'paradise' was already associated with the Garden of Eden and prophesies of restoration of Eden at the time Jesus was being crucified.

In other words, genuine Judaism prohibited belief in immortal soul. The key word here is post-exilic, after the exile. In other words when Persial freed Israel form Babylonian captivity and influenced Judaism with Zoroastrianism, c. 5th century BC.

It seems to me some key words go right by you, or you don;t read the whole thing.

As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality

Duh!

It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality

It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2

Messianic hope is a latter-day development in Judaism. In fact it can be traced tom a VERY late development and influence of pagan Greek thought

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos"

So, today's Jewish belief in immortality or resurrection is a later development (limited only to Pharisaical Judaism, the form of Judaism that survived and morphed into rabbinic Judaism after 70 AD and the second Exile that produced Christian Era Talmud), and can be traced to Persian, Greek and Egyptian origins, none of which have anything to do with the genuine Mosaic Judaism.

The last time I checked, c. 5th century BC is BEFORE Christ, Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8, Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2 are Biblical passages that were written BEFORE Christ; ("...the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence") and I think there is something in the Bible about Jesus and that Messianic thing, too.

If man by "being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality" then Jesus' words to the thief make perfect sense. I am reminded of His words, "He who lives and believes in Me shall never die.", and "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."

My personal opinion is that Jesus was using a simple, picturesque one-word metaphor or type for eternal life and immortality with a word that was associated with prophetic references to Eden and Eden restored, but also a word that would have meant something in a simpler way to the thief. People who are dying will sometimes use symbolic language. My own father used a baseball metaphor to me when he was dying in 1975, similar to the one in the 2002 movie, "Signs"; "Swing away, Merle." To the thief 'paradise' may have just meant a garden like place, or possibly the gardens around a king's palace, if he were a gentile, something like Eden if he were a Jew. Conveying a simple and a complex meaning at the same time are not mutually exclusive.

Your tacit admissions of the timeline prove that the word and the ideas were in currency at the time Jesus used it, and that it is not at all impossible or even implausible that he used it, your objections over "genuine Judaism" and your fine eschatological distinctions on the differences between Heaven and Eden notwithstanding.

Cordially,