Posted on 06/13/2010 12:16:24 PM PDT by markomalley
.- Thousands of pilgrims and faithful gathered at noon Sunday in St. Peter’s Square to pray the Angelus with the Holy Father. Before the prayer, he said that the fruits of the recently ended Year for Priests could never be measured, but are already visible and will continue to be ever more so.
“The priest is a gift from the heart of Christ, a gift for the Church and for the world. From the heart of the Son of God, overflowing with love, all the goods of the Church spring forth,” proclaimed Pope Benedict XVI. “One of those goods is the vocations of those men who, conquered by the Lord Jesus, leave everything behind to dedicate themselves completely to the Christian community, following the example of the Good Shepherd.”
The Holy Father described the priest as having been formed by “the same charity of Christ, that love which compelled him to give his life for his friends and to forgive his enemies.”
“Therefore,” he continued, “priests are the primary builders of the civilization of love.”
Benedict XVI exhorted priests to always seek the intercession of St. John Marie Vianney, whose prayer, the “Act of Love,” was prayed frequently during the Year for Priests, and “continues to fuel our dialogue with God.”
The pontiff also spoke about the close of the Year for Priests, which took place this past week and culminated with the Solemnity of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. He emphasized “the unforgettable days in the presence of more than 15,000 priests from around the world.”
The feast of the Sacred Heart is traditionally a “day of priestly holiness,” but this time it was especially so, Benedict XVI remarked.
Pope Benedict concluded his comments by noting that, in contemplating history, “one observes so many pages of authentic social and spiritual renewal which have been written by the decisive contribution of Catholic priests.” These were inspired “only by their passion for the Gospel and for mankind, for his true civil and religious freedom.”
“So many initiatives that promote the entire human being have begun with the intuition of a priestly heart,” he exclaimed.
The Pope then prayed the Angelus, greeted those present in various languages, and imparted his apostolic blessing.
Thank you all for your lively participation on this important topic.
I don’t know how is it that you posted so much yesterday and I could not connect either time I tried. Please consider contributing to FR. I am not aware of another forum where conservative Christians can mix and argue religion with such ease.
I will get to all your posts, hopefully, within a day or two, failing that, over the weekend.
In the meanwhile, I encourage you to read back to the beginning of the thread, where similar questions and objections were raised and answered with sufficient clarity.
To reiterate with a blanket statement, priests and the Catholic Church are a gift of God to us indeed; the Holy Scripture records that gift being given in the shape of the bishops/priests commanded to feed us the Eucharist, forgive or retain our sins, spread the gospel of salvation by grace of God alone, and give us guidance in everyday lives.
The heresy of salvation being not only by grace alone but also by faith alone is taught against in the scripture, al;most anywhere you look. We are, in scriptural fact, saved by both faith and good works, both of which are given us by the merciful God in grace.
Good works are not to be confused with pharisaical legalistic works “of law” that is doen out of obligation, against the salvific nature of which Christ argued witht he pharisees a lot and St. Paul wrote, especially in the letters to Galatians and to Romans
You don’t have to talk to me on FR to avail yourselves of these truths. Read Mathew 5-7. and 25, the ending chapters of any gospel, James 2, or examine your favorite prooftext from St. Paul and you will see that salvation by faith alone is never proclaimed in the gospel, but salvation by sovereign grace of God through faith and works of love is taught by all the scripture.
Note also that nowhere does the scripture say that works are an automatic consequence of faith. Good works often result from faith, but good works are a result of grace, not necessarily of faith. It is not merely an abstract heresy to separate the two, it has a harmful effect on society around us. Turn away from it.
This is not to dismiss any individual post to me; I will respond soon.
You guys know so little about the scriptures...
Paul was not a bishop...Paul was an Apostle...Paul was THE Apostle of the adoption...That doesn't sound primary to you???
I'd like you to stand back and look at this statement. This is a very good demonstration of what is wrong with the children of the Reformation. The primary teacher of the early Church (for three years) was Christ.
The church wasn't mentioned by Jesus til Matthew 16...And then Jesus spoke of it as a future operation...
That's why the Reformation took place...You guys are telling the same stories that your religion told before the scriptures were revealed to the common people...
Thanks but no thanks...We have the God breathed scriptures that cuts your religion off at the knees...
You know a lot of Lenin quotes??? Was Lenin a Catholic???
But since your religion can't find the Trinity in the scriptures, how did that information get to your religious council??? Who was it revealed to and when???
I will remind you that many people here regard Paul as a GOD and Jesus is merely a figurehead and a name to appeal to.
Well name names...I don't know anyone here who regards the Apostle Paul as a God...
We need to concentrate on Jesus' words first and foremost.
We did, and we do...Jesus was teaching His own...His chosen people, the Jews...He was teaching them about the Kingdom...
They didn't believe Him...He was murdered and Resurrected...
And then we concentrated on the message of the Risen Savior that was revealed to and then by the Apostle Paul...The Resurrected Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and told Paul that He would offer Salvation, thru Grace by Faith, without works lest any man should boast, to the Gentiles...
Else, why would you wish to to be known as Christian?
Jesus put it on the Apostle Paul to give the layout of the churches...You wouldn't know to call yourself a Christian were it not for the epistles of Paul...No one during the ministry of Jesus called himself or others a Christian...
You don't need to respond to my posts- I will forfeit any answers to my posts in order that you may answer metmom's post 1599. This one is important and I would like to see, as would metmom, an answer. If not from you, then ANYONE in the catholic faith who can answer. Thanks for your answer in advance -
What makes you think that any of us don't?
To reiterate with a blanket statement, priests and the Catholic Church are a gift of God to us indeed; the Holy Scripture records that gift being given in the shape of the bishops/priests commanded to feed us the Eucharist, forgive or retain our sins, spread the gospel of salvation by grace of God alone, and give us guidance in everyday lives.
If bishops can forgive or retain sin, then salvation is not through Christ alone, it is through other fallible and very human men.
Knowing the heart of man and what Scripture has to say about it, I find it beyond comprehension that God would give that kind of unmitigated power to any man. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Giving very fallible and easily corruptible men that kind of power is a recipe for disaster. Just how many people could be burning in hell for eternity right now because some corrupt priest, bishop, or pope withheld forgiveness of sins?
Scripture very clearly says.....1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
No if's and's or but's about it. God promises forgiveness from Himself upon confession, and with no mention of having to go to a priest to do it. Telling Him is good enough, or He would have let us know of the conditions.
Every Evangelical church I know of has a business meeting every year and provides a financial report of giving and expenses and is audited by an outside source for financial integrity.
I wonder what the Catholic Church does? I don't recall them ever answering to anyone about how much money they have and where it goes.
Thanks, I was starting to think I needed to look at my computer software.
LOL
Who's to say? The Bible doesn't say he wasn't.
We know a lot of it goes to settling lawsuits against priest child abuse cases.. but that's just a drop in the offering buckets.
It's EXHAUSTING, trying to figure it out!
The heresy of salvation being not only by grace alone but also by faith alone is taught against in the scripture, al;most anywhere you look. We are, in scriptural fact, saved by both faith and good works, both of which are given us by the merciful God in grace.
NOPE!
A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
1. Priests in the culture of and awash in the heresies of the Vatican INSTITUTION are a plague on themselves, their sheep and the planet far too often.
2. Many of them are earnest, God fearing folks who earnestly do their best within the constraints they were given and taught to lead folks to God and help individuals walk with God. Many of them are earnestly caring, sacrificial, thoughtful, compassionate and do a marvelous job of caring for those under them. Those good works out of a good heart, however, do not save them nor anyone else. AND THEY CERTAINLY DO NOT NEGATE THE HERETICAL BLASPHEMOUS JUNK the INSTITUTION fosters and is awash in.
3. They were not, per se given nor ordained of God in anywhere near the form, format, dogma, culture etc. proffered by the Vatican INSTITUTION. The bureaucratic, magicsterical power-mongers in Rome made a great sociological, political achievement with the hierarchical tyranny over the flock--looking at it from the standpoint of the INSTITUTION.
4. HOWEVER, the 2' thick veil in THE TEMPLE was torn assunder when Christ was crucified. He's not that thrilled that the Vatican INSITUTION has reinstated it in a thousand ways. The professional priests are but one of those ways.
5. Denying and negating the PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS is a major heresy of the Vatican INSTITUTION.
6. Denying and diminishing individuals' freedom to approach God boldly face to face as it were, in Christ's Blood is a most horrific heresy, even blasphemy that many in the Vatican INSITUTION WILL BE GIVING SERIOUS ACCOUNT FOR.
7. No, Scripture does NOT instruct Priests to feed the flock per se the Lord's Supper. Rather, the Scripture instructs the spiritual leaders of the flock to FEED THEM CHRIST, THE LIVING WORD, THE BREAD OF LIFE IN SPIRITUAL MEAT TRANSFORMING THEIR LIVES BY THE WASHING OF THE WORD, THE CLEANSING OF THE BLOOD, THE ENLIVENING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT . . . as Paul mentions meat, no longer milk.
8. The Transsubstantiation thing about the Lord's Supper turns the flock into pagans and superstitionists obsessed with objects holdable in hands vs the RISEN, LIVING CHRIST WITHIN THEM BY HIS GRACE AND SPIRIT SUPERNATURALLY as they fellowship with HIM, read HIS WORD, feed on HIS WORD, walk and talk with HIM, FOCUS ON HIM vs focusing on Mary and hundreds of other Vatican INSTITUTUIONAL BLASPHEMOUS, IDOLOTROUS DISTRACTIONS & USURPATIONS from a true life of faith and intimacy with God.
9. Forgive or retain sins . . . I'm skeptical that The Lord will, in the final analysis, allow that Scripture much fulfillment at the hands of a very significant percentage of the hierarchy of the Vatican INSTITUTION. The blasphemous priorities vis a vis Mary et al negate, imho, any truly spiritual authority and anointing they MIGHT have otherwise had to forgive or retain sins or anything else the New Testament Scriptures mention for the priesthood of all Believers.
10. All Believers are tasked with spreading the Gospel as well as to exhort one another daily. This is not remotely exclusive for a professional priestly class.
11. NO! SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR THAT SALVATION IS BY FAITH ALONE. Authentic heart-felt good works follow accordingly for those persisting in walking as close to God as they know how. Misconstruing Scripture into a mangled doctrine of faith + works yields a fuzzy, indefinite 'Salvation' is a lie from the pit of hell of great damage to the Body of Christ and to the world at large.
12. Maybe I can start in where I left off with the Scriptural range of verses you cited. They are not remotely in your camp, your perspective when logically, rightly divided taking plain unrubberized definitions and unrubberized Scriptures at face value. Even those Scriptures you cite also speak for faith alone as THE VEHICLE FOR, route to SALVATION through faith in Christ's Blood alone. Or, as Scripture also puts it:
13. BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART, CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED. THAT IS FAITH, NOT WORKS AND NOT FAITH PLUS WORKS. Some might claim that confession with the mouth is a Salvivic work. No, not in any Salvivic sense. One can confess with the mouth for decades and without the heart attitude of faith, there's NOTHING Salvivic about the confession.
14. THROUGHOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR FOR THOSE WITH EYES TO SEE, THAT FAITH ALONE IS THE BIBLICAL MODEL. Paul is clear about castigating ANY RETURN TO WORKS FOR ANY PART OF SALVATION AS SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS, DESTRUCTIVE, FOOLISH, IN FACT, CRAZY, INSANE--AS HE ARTICULATES IN GALATIANS 3 & 4.
15. The Scriptures you mention DO, IN FACT, ARTICULATE A SALVATION BY FAITH ALONE SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION. THEY ARE NOT REMOTELY IN SUPPORT OF FAITH + WORKS FOR SALVATION.
16. AUTHENTIC BIBLICAL GOOD WORKS ARE A MORE OR LESS NATURAL FLOW OUT OF HEART FELT FAITH--LOVE FOSTERED, LOVE FILLED FAITH PRODUCES AUTHENTIC WORKS OF GODLINESS. Automatic? I suppose it depends on the definition. Certainly such works are automatic for one CHOOSING to daily walk in communion, fellowship with Jesus, filled with His Spirit.
17. They are NOT automatic for someone with a RELIGIOUS MENTALITY--JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS TO EARN SALVATION. Most probably, such people rarely have God pleasing works to offer up to God at all.
Take your time in responding. I'm behind, too. Blessings. I agree that FR is the premier place for such exchanges. It is a main reason I donate out of my meager income.
I want to thank you for grounding the discussion is solid Catholic principles and returning to the original topic. Too often Catholic topic threads are hijacked and turned into Protestant litter boxes for the sole purpose of slandering the Church and insulting Catholics. Too often I have allowed them to drag me down to their level. Your example of remaining true to the faith is one that we should emulate.
Indeed, priests are a gift from God and those that have graced my life have been exemplary. No amount of contrived scriptural interpretation or reformist spin will change that or interfere with the Communion. This is something those who have never had a clergy willing to forgo so much for their benefit will never comprehend.
As Peter said to Cornelius:
Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: - Acts 10:34
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23:8-12
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way. – Romans 14:7-13
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7
I trust we do not have a difference here, that both sides would say that man could never be "good enough" to get to heaven by his own efforts; that if he could, Christ died for nothing.
The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? – Jer 17:9
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: - Romans 3:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. – James 2:10
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." -- Matthew 5:9
I wonder what the Catholic Church does? I don't recall them ever answering to anyone about how much money they have and where it goes.
That is an excellent question. The answer is some variation of "don't ask; don't tell."
Amen. Lies and half-truths are complicated and confusing. The truth is spoken clearly. It's just not that difficult to understand.
Knowing the heart of man and what Scripture has to say about it, I find it beyond comprehension that God would give that kind of unmitigated power to any man. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
AMEN!
It's interesting to note the full quote, which isn't usually given --
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. All great men are bad men." -- Lord Acton.
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae, et in Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus, descendit ad ínferos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Patris omnipotentis, inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis resurrectionem, vitam aeternam. Amen.
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
Sadly, Rome gives lip service to the Apostles' Creed and then spins off into blatant idolatry with its corrupted transubstantiation, veneration of relics and dead people, Maryiology, baptismal regeneration, papal infallibility and a priestcraft believed to be "another Christ."
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