Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:
There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.
There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:
[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.
If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:
Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:
It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.* * * * *
Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]
There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.
He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.
Endnotes:
1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
2 Thessalonians 2:7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Quix, you bring no light (or Christian charity) to any of these discussions.
Also, the rapture is not new in the Bible. Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus Christ were all raptured.
INDEED. WELL PUT.
The whole notion is completely UNBiblical and absurdly idiotic.
I’m embarrased for them . . . that they are
Christian, conservative and still seem to have terminal troubles with the plain statements of Scripture about such things.
Truly they’ve become mesmerized by RUBBER DICTIONARIES, RUBBER “BIBLES” and RUBBER HISTORIES.
Crazy to the max.
The following is well & accurately said:
This author is a hack.
If we are to believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39 already happened, all we have to do is look at 38:18 through all of 39.
When in history has Israel faced such a force? Was this force so completely routed that the world knew it was GOD who defended Israel? Was there a great and mighty earthquake? Was there great rain and fire and brimstone? Was Magog consumed by fire? What about the people of Israel not gathering wood from the fields or firewood from the forests, as they’d burn weapons for 7 YEARS? What about burying the dead for 7 months?
This guy is a hack, cherry picking what he wants.
Read Ezekiel and it doesn’t take much to realize that the war of Gog/Magog HAS NOT happened.
Ezekiel describes a war so vast and yet the destruction is so lop sided and complete.
Also Ezekiel 38:8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.
Sounds to me like modern day Israel. A land that WAS a continual waste, until the people of Israel returned, literally from all over the world.
I think what a key in this verse is the term latter years. If this had already happened, this would have happened before the time of Christ, making Christs time the very latter years.
No- Ezekiel IS NOT describing the past. Its the future. A war that will one day happen, and just like Ezekiel says, “And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.” And yet still the Antichrist will still make war against God and Israel.
God will make himself known to the world, and yet the people of the world will align themselves with Antichrist and against God.
It doesn’t take much to see that Israels allies are deserting her. That the WORLDS animosity against Israel is rising. NO OTHER nation is ridiculed and viewed with double standards. Nations lie against Israel and people CHOOSE to believe those lies. The naive follow along.
I for one have read Gods word. I know that what is happening today against Israel, goes beyond man and governments. Whats happening today is being fought out between angles and demons. Satan and his minions are pushing world events.
All has been foretold. God predicted it and is allowing it.
He also tells us the final outcome.
Okay, I admit, that was “bringing light”. I would like to research this more but that looks to be helpful.
It still boggles my mind that anyone could fall for the whole thoroughly irrationial nonsense of such prophecies happening in 70AD.
Do folks turn their brains off when they read such Scriptures—like they turn their brains off when they read about
GOD’S EVERLASTING PROMISES TO THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB ENDURING AS LONG AS THERE ARE SUN, MOON AND STARS???
What is their motivation for believing such lies from hell that God breaks such EVERLASTING PROMISES TO HIS BEST BUD???
I don’t know anyone praying for judgment etc. END TIMES EVENTS to rush along soon.
There’s even a Scripture against such sentiments.
There is also a Scripture about “even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.”
Seeking to see Jesus is in a different category.
I certainly pray for as long as possible of relative normalcy to work while there’s still light.
I thought that’s what you meant.
still searching for "loopholes"
Did you forget your /sar tag?
Thanks for catching that. I missed that in brief perusal.
Bump for later
Naw.
Y’all flood the threads with extensive UNBIBLICAL BLATHER.
I think the most loving response I can make for the widest variety of readers is to provide a diversity of alternate sources just as extensively documenting the Biblical truths of such issues.
And, I think the most loving thing to do is provide all the text so folks don’t have to bother going off FR to consider the issues of the FR thread from all sides.
I don’t recall hiring you as my supervisor nor my posting style coach.
Seems to me the rabid clique types are up to their usual whining, wailing, throwing dust in the air and running to the RM when their sensibilities aren’t flattered and applauded.
That’s sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo impressive.
All the rabid clique Mummies and Daddies must be incredibly proud at all their two year olds !!!!DEMANDING!!!! that the world conform to their 2 year old sensibilities.
I guess the parenting skills are about as good as the UNRUBBERIZED authentic Bible comprehension skills.
INDEED! I AGREE.
But your source was from a Unitarian Universalist cult?
THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS.
I was about to wonder if the rabid cliques’ “page down” keys were all
sacrifced in some wierd plastic melting ritual on the altars of
REPLACEMENTARIANISM/ PRETERISM/ A-MILLENIALISM/ POST-MILLENIALISM/ RUN-OF-THE-MIL-ISM . . . probably on Halloween.
/s
Now now.
REPLACEMENTARIAN naysayers don’t deal in ideas.
They just cobble together words haphazardly from the left-over shards of the elastic and rubber bands their shredded “Bibles” are made from.
That’s one of my favorite things in the Old Testament.
Thanks.
And come on Quix. How can you dismiss eschatological views that you disagree with as “unbiblical blather” when you believe in aliens and spaceships? Come on man, this is not an issue that is worth dividing or attacking one another over. No one will be saved based on their view of the end-times.
Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
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