The fight over Book of Mormon geography

The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior...

Once again;
you win...

3 Nephi 9:2-12

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!
3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I, JESUS burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.
4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I, JESUS caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.
5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I, JESUS covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.
6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I, JESUS caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;
7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I, JESUS caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.
8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I, JESUS caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I, JESUS buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.
9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I, JESUS caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I, JESUS did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.
10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I, JESUS caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I, JESUS did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.
11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I, JESUS did send down afire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I, JESUS sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them.
12 And many great destructions have I, JESUS caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.

(Nothing about Gitmo though...)

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)

Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

    .

   .

    .

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

Oh! So do WE!!

Let's try this AGAIN!!

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

.

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

There is no discussing things with blind idiots who will fall for such lies as the BoM.

You are the only one here who has been claiming that there were mass resurrections prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because those familiar with the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). No man was resurrected before Jesus Christ. “And the graves were opened; and many bodeis of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared uto many” (Matthew 27:52-53).

- - - -
EPIC FAIL - Matt 27 doesn’t say it was AFTER the resurrection. They didn’t appear in town until after the resurrection. Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

And, even if it were, then perhaps I should have used TIME FRAME, which still in no way negates my statement that Christ killed tens of thousands in the BoM which is completely incongruent with the resurrections in the Middle east.

AFA, the rest are not ‘my opinions’ they are facts. Shame you can’t seem to deal with facts. Suggestion - don’t go into a legal profession.

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

Among the meanings of "tangible" is "touchable". Although a piece of paper with "caractors" that may have been copied from Book of Mormon plates is "touchable", it is unsatisfactory as evidence, because we do not know for sure that there is a direct connection between the "caractors" and the engravings on the Book of Mormon plates. Even if there is, we do not know whether they copy a continuous sequence of engravings, of if they were copied at random.

The most tangible evidence that the plates are real and that people saw them and their engravings and handled and hefted the plates is the testimony of the eight witnesses, printed in every copy of the Book of Mormon, because it is the sworn statement of eight real people, who never denied their testimonies. As thoroughly documented in Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses by Richard Lloyd Anderson, none of the witnesses, even those who became estranged from the church or from Joseph Smith, ever denied their printed testimonies.

Sorry Elsie, but those well-known printed testimonies that millions have read and understood have greater weight than your futile attempts to undermine them. Don't waste your living energy trying to undo what cannot be undone. The last living Book of Mormon witness, David Whitmer, who was an honorable resident of Richmond, Missouri, died affirming his testimony. Had any of the other 10 witnesses emphatically denied what they had testified to, David Whitmer would have had to deal with that in his Address to All Belivers in Christ. Instead, he sealed the truth of those testimonies in his final years. Go to Richmond, Missouri and read his gravestone and then try to deny what you see written thereon.

I pray that Christ will direct you find more satisfying occupations than badmouthing Christians who are now dwelling in His holy presence.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

You do not know for sure whether of not verses 52 and 53 were meant to be a parenthetical observation. You may be reading it too hastily. From other scriptures we know that Jesus was the first fruits of those who "slept" (that is were dead) who were resurrected.

"The earth shook and the rocks split" during the time when Jesus was on the cross, during the same period when the earth was shaking and rocks splitting in Mesoamerica, according to the Book of Mormon.

Jesus Christ was the first person resurrected into eternal life. (A dead man whom Jesus raised from the dead eventually died again). It was only after Jesus was resurrected into eternal life that "many holy people who had died were raised to [eternal] life".

Thus, there were not mass resurrections before Jesus Christ rose from the dead. It might be wise for you to emphatically admit this. Otherwise, you put yourself at odds with most other Christians, who believe that Jesus was the first of all persons to be resurrected into eternal life.

“The most tangible evidence that the plates are real and that people saw them and their engravings and handled and hefted the plates is the testimony of the eight witnesses, printed in every copy of the Book of Mormon, because it is the sworn statement of eight real people, who never denied their testimonies. “

This “swearing” that they saw and hefted them is so much silliness.

Was it sworn in a court of law?
If so, where? Who was the presiding Judge or officer of the court?
If not a judge, who did they swear to? Joseph Smith, charlatan?
Was there a consequence if they falsely swore?
Did Smith pay them for their testimony?
How much were they compensated?
How do you know?
Did Smith threaten to harm them if they recanted?
How do you know?
Did David Whitmer write his own headstone, or was
it placed there by mormons?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>>>>

As to the “swearing” of mormons, the following
testimony in a court of law, under a judge, puts
mormon swearing into perspective:

“Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive any body else. The following questions were then asked him, to which he made the replies annexed.

“Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain glass which he mentioned?

“Yes.

“Did he tell you, you could find it by digging?

“Yes.

“Did you dig?

“Yes.

“Did you find any money?

“No.

“Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you?

“No! the money was there, but we did not get quite to it!

“How do you know it was there?

“Smith said it was!

“Addison Austin was next called upon, who testified, that at the very same time that Stowell was digging for money, he, Austin, was in company with said Smith alone, and asked him to tell him honestly whether he could see this money or not.

“Smith hesitated some time, but finally replied, “to be candid, between you and me, I cannot, any more than you or any body else; but any way to get a living.”

“Here, then, we have his own confession, that he was a vile, dishonest impostor.

“As regards the testimony of Josiah Stowell, it needs no comment. He swears positively that Smith did not lie to him. So much for a Mormon witness.”

Evangelical Magazine & Gospel Advocate Utica, N. Y., April 9, 1831.

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1877Purp.htm

Character of the 11 Witnesses

Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith's translation. Smith's only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith's account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.

Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. "Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell--one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949]."{6}

Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention."{7}

Martin Harris' testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196) In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a "wicked man."{9} The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder's Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . ." (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.

Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated "to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain 'revelations' . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's House, . . ."{11} Despite Smith's condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page's movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, "During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . ."{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.

David Whitmer wrote, "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . ."{13} Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.

Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, "God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam's . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!"{14}

The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon's eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith's defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.

Probe Ministry website quote

Lots of interesting information about the claims of mormonism at the probe website for any lurkers ...

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4217713/k.DD61/Examining_the_Book_of_Mormon.htm

Among the meanings of "tangible" is "touchable". Although a piece of paper with "caractors" that may have been copied from Book of Mormon plates is "touchable", it is unsatisfactory as evidence, because we do not know for sure that there is a direct connection between the "caractors" and the engravings on the Book of Mormon plates.

What?

JS took THIS to anton, and SAID he copied them from the plates.

You do NOT believe the PROPHET?

This “swearing” that they saw and hefted them is so much silliness. Was it sworn in a court of law? If so, where? Who was the presiding Judge or officer of the court? If not a judge, who did they swear to? Joseph Smith, charlatan? Was there a consequence if they falsely swore? Did Smith pay them for their testimony? How much were they compensated? How do you know? Did Smith threaten to harm them if they recanted? How do you know? Did David Whitmer write his own headstone, or was it placed there by mormons?

Against these frantic questions we have the printed testimonies of Book of Mormon witnesses. Declared "with words of soberness", they speak for themselves.

At this time when all patriots are needed to be active in turning back an all-out effort by "progressives" to overthrow our constitution, do you really think that ridiculing the Book of Mormon is wise?

The Book of Mormon tells us about struggles between kingmen and freemen in Mesoamerica, and the Book of Mormon sides with the freemen. And now you want to insult the Book of Mormon in ways that are offensive to believers in it?

Please, for the sake of America, don't ostracize conservative, Constitution-loving Latter Day Saints, who want to help take America from our domestic enemies. Patriots can read about the struggle between kingmen and freemen in the Book of Alma and know that something similar is happening in America right now.

At this time when all patriots are needed to be active in turning back an all-out effort by “progressives” to overthrow our constitution, do you really think that ridiculing the Book of Mormon is wise?
_______________________________________

AH John...

What on Earth has the Constitution got to do with a fictitious poorly written book ???

So what if someone “overthrows” the constitution of the United States ???

God wont fall off His throne...

What if someone doesnt believe the Koran ???

Will that effect the Constitution of the United States one way or another ???

How about the Harry Potter series ???

Or Battlestar Galactica ???

I’m sure lots of people realize they arent real either...

To throw aspertions on someone’s level of patriocy just because they think Joey Smith and his book of mormon is a joke or not is stretching this way too far...

We have Vietnam veterans and Iraq veterans in these threads...

Are you suggesting that because they have the sense to not be taken in by a conman they are responsible if the Constitution is changed...

Sonny you are too late with your strange accusations...

The Constituation was changed (”overthrown”) YEARS BEFORE Joey Smith was ever born...

What do you think an AMENDMENT is ???

BTW the one who wrote the book of mormon was also a “progressive” who was working to “Overthrow” not only the constitution, but the government of the United States...

At this time when all patriots are needed to be active in turning back an all-out effort by “progressives” to overthrow our constitution, do you really think that ridiculing the Book of Mormon is wise?
_______________________________________

Lets see, you are not concerned that you believe something to do with God was “overthrown” at some early point by “progressives” and needed “restoring”

but you bite your nails over a temporal government on Earth that is going to be done away with anyway...

Why dont you tell us how you think the Church was ever wrestled from the clumsy fingers of the LORD Jesus Christ of the Bible ???

She must have been if she ever needed “restoring”...

If God needed a man to help him get her back...

Show us how wise you are ...

And now you want to insult the Book of Mormon in ways that are offensive to believers in it?
___________________________________________

Its impossible to “insult” the book of mormon...

its just a book of fiction...

Do you say the same things about the Koran ???

Better still are you wise and careful over the Word of the Living God, THe Holy Bible ???

A few years after Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon, the great author, Mark Twain (Samuel Clements) was on a trip through Utah and he brought himself a copy of the book of mormon because he had heard something about it and because he was in the kingdom of the mormons..

He said that it was so boring, it was “chloroform in print” and said if the “and it came to passes” were taken out it would have been only a pamplet..(Mark Twain, Roughing It)

Dont lets start pretending that the writings of Joey Smith have any intrinsic value..

It is not the Bible, nor anywhere near its equal in religious value...

nor as an American self help book is it even close to Poor Richards Almanack..

However the Koran does contain several verses which are echoed almost verbatim in mormon doctrines...Joey Smith and others copied the ideas from Islamic literature..