Posted on 05/12/2010 3:16:33 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
What do you say to those who claim drinking is OK because Jesus drank wine?
You say, "I think you meant to add just a word or two to that sentence, like 'drinking can be OK' ... OK?" The statement "It's OK" may or may not carry in their mind a pattern of life that's healthy.
I would say some drinking is definitely not OK, like drinking to drunkenness. That's clear in the Bible. Another one that's not OK is drinking with a person who is manifestly having their conscience wounded and being tempted or drawn into something that they just spent six years trying through Teen Challenge and AA to get free from. And now you're drawing them right in to what killed them! And it kills millions of people in this culture. It's killing marriages, it's killing jobs. Alcohol is deadly in this culture.
Now I don't know how deadly it was in Jesus' culture. Drunkenness was real. Clearly the Bible condemns it. How real and deadly it was though, I don't know. I just know what I'm dealing with when I go to talk at Teen Challenge or when I pray with a man like I did after church last Sunday who said, "When I'm done here, I'm going out and getting drunk, because I'm done. I think I'm apostate, and I'm beyond help and forgiveness. And I've been through treatment so many times it's hopeless." I just know that is so prevalent. People that are cavalier about this thing called alcohol make no sense to me.
So, I'm just saying, "Add a word to that sentence."
Of course you can't defend teetotalism in any absolute way from the Bible. It's clear that wine is a blessing in the Bible.
If you make the choice, like me, that I'm going to be a teetotaler, it's just not based on the condemnation of the evil of wine. That's just not it at all! It's the context in which I live. It's my children and my grandchildren. It's my addictive personality. I can't even buy a pack of gum without going through it in an hour.
I sense a lot of young guys who don't want to be legalistic and want to spread their wings and know gospel freedom are just not very realistic about the world in which we live.
So that's a little warning. And I know the pushback would be real strong from a lot of people I admire greatly that I could easily fall into a trap of ruling out for everybody what God has given as a precious gift.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2154244/posts?q=1&;page=305
The question didn’t arise until the 1900s.
It wouldn't matter when the question arose, because the two major ways of being able to understand that remains "fixed" over the centuries from that time of almost 2,000 years ago.
The two major ways would be by the actual text itself and then by the culture. Those two things are "fixed" and they don't change. You may not even bother with a question and it may "sit there" for centuries... no one ever bothering with it. And that's fine.
But, whenever the question is raised -- the "answer" comes from those two "fixed aspects" (i.e., they don't change because they're a matter of history). The text is fixed and the culture is fixed. Thus the "answer is fixed" no matter when you ask the question ...
There are also other things that have been "raised" as questions or issues over the centuries, too. Some earlier and some later. When they are raised doesn't matter very much. The answer from the text and the understanding we have from the culture is what matters.
Let's take a look, to see if you were deceiving readers with your faux Bible lesson!
[Star Traveler: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2154244/posts?q=1&;page=305] You said — “He didn’t say anything about being nice to His enemies.” I think he did, in regards to the question of “Who is my neighbor” and who helped the injured Samaritan along the road (Samaritans were the enemies of Israel...).... I think Jesus made the point very well…
Was this merely a typo? Well, you repeated the error, so we can’t call the initial error a typo; you just aren’t what you pretend to be. But, in typical liars bluff not knowing when to keep quiet in your initial deceit, you tried to dismiss my calling you out:
To: Star Traveler When you actually learn whom the Samaritans were and their relationship to the ‘in tribe’ of Jerusalem, perhaps you’ll have matured sufficiently to not make large religious claims based on flawed references. 326 posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 8:55:48 PM by MHGinTN
To: MHGinTN Suffice it to say, if you studied the Bible and knew your facts … It appears you have no knowledge of the Bible or knowledge of Jesus, and that’s a major problem in even understanding what Jesus said… 341 posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:11:52 PM by Star Traveler
To: MHGinTN … And Jesus made that an express example of the question of “Who is my neighbor” in giving the example of helping the Samaritan who was passed by on the road, by everyone else. …
You obviously are like the Pharisees and the Sadducees who were always against Jesus and what He said, time and time again. I see we have them here on this forum, too — in spite of what the Bible tells Christians to do…
357 posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:32:15 PM by Star Traveler
To: Star Traveler From your #305 post, you did't even know that the Good Smaritan was the one who stopped to help the injured traveler! You're a fraud, a typical poseur trying to quote the Bible to manipulate readers. Here is your exact sentence from #305:
Star Traveler: I think he did, in regards to the question of “Who is my neighbor” and who helped the injured Samaritan along the road (Samaritans were the enemies of Israel...)
361 posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:41:15 PM by MHGinTN
To: MHGinTN You said — “You’re a fraud, a typical poseur trying to quote the Bible to manipulate readers.” It’s the exact same thing I’ve been posting, from the Bible, since the beginning on Free Republic. You’ll find no difference from Clinton, to Bush to Obama... You just don’t like the content of what is being posted, and that’s your problem. But, I won’t be changing my posting.
— The Samaritan was the person who helped. I’ll quote the section for you... Luke 10:25-37
… 369 posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 9:54:35 PM by Star Traveler
As everyone can see, you didn't know whom the Samaritan was when you decided to 'instruct' freepers on Biblical issues. BUT, you couldn't stop there, you had to change your spittle when caught. So yes, the above proves you're a liar and fraud at FR.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
That's exactly what I did and have done.
Well, when you say that's exactly what you have done ... you do also realize that this is exactly what David Hocking has done, too ... you see ... :-)
Not only that, there's all the pastors that I've had over the past 50 years who have also done the same.
So, it would appear that we have a difference of understanding here... :-)
I drink to make other people interesting.
“You gave it a good try, I must say that.”
And that is what ST always does.
The contextual discussion of Jesus’ first miracle makes it abundantly clear that real fermented wine is what was made.
Those that are spiritually weak often fear wine, and grasp at the flimsyest quotes to “prove” that wine was prohibited, but John the Baptist is the only figure in the NT that was said to have not used Wine.
Of course when you run out of Bible to support your philosophy, there remains “theology.”
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Thank you for that.
It’s easy for me, I know what I’ve read, I know what I believe and any number of modern men who “interpret” the Bible cannot sway.
I think sometimes we read too many books on the interpretation of the Bible. It sways our opinions.
I think I’m glad I’m just a dummy about theological arguments.
I usually made grape or wild muscadine wine. One jug held the wine and I corked it and ran a copper tube into another jug filled with water so air couldn't reach it. If you don't make the fermenting jug air tight you'll have vinegar. I've drank white lightning one time just to see what it taste like. It wasn't as bad as all the hype you hear about it. I didn't make any large quantities of wine. Most I had was about a dozen bottles I think. I made it a gallon at a time.
When a deceitful person is posting on the religion thread, arew we to just ignore that? Posting the deceits of a poster, in their own words froman FR thread, is that taboo now?
I'm a dummy - I believe the Bible is God's inspired word and he would not allow it to be misinterpreted.
It is "God-breathed" (i.e., "inspired" as you put it) and He hasn't allowed it to be changed or altered. He just didn't speak to you in "English" -- that's all ... LOL ...
Furthermore, God preserving His word so that it's not lost or altered -- is not the same thing as guaranteeing that anyone and everyone will interpret it right.
In fact, the Bible is clear -- itself -- that people will not interpret it right, as it talks about those who subvert doctrines to evil ends and suppress what is known about God, rejecting Him and His Word.
So, you can't say that God will "make sure everyone understands it right" -- but God will make sure that His word "stays intact" and is there for anyone to read -- and by His Holy Spirit, He will give guidance to their own understanding.
BUT, again, I say -- God did not give you His word in "English" ... :-) He didn't "God-breath-it" in English, it wasn't preserved from the beginning in English and it's not His word in English... and that's just the way He chose to do it.
The fact that you speak English is the same as if someone spoke French, or another spoke German or another spoke Spanish. There's nothing special about English, French, Spanish or German -- in terms of the Word of God. They're all "human translations" done by ordinary people -- and furthermore -- there are more "English translations" coming out all the time.
No... the key is the Bible in the original language that God gave it to the world in....
Again, check out these links ... :-)
I guess you’ll have to get the “final word” on the subject from Jesus ... eh? ... :-)
Which Pentecostals??? There are many different versions out there...
“I will stick with tradition.”
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Good idea!
Wine is God’s sanitation system. It makes all water safe to drink. Drinking of water without wine blended in is a relatively new concept.
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See Post #123 ...
“I guess you’ll have to get the “final word” on the subject from Jesus ... eh?”
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Already have!
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Accusing a Freeper of fraud is also "making it personal." The word "misrepresent" is not making it personal.
Finally, carrying posts from previous threads may be trouble-making (inciting flame wars) if there is no context in the discussion to justify it.
I’m still waiting for Him to arrive ... :-)
Read what I lifted from an earlier thread. The posts made by the poster in question were deceit and proven by just reading the posts on that thread. Okay, I’l refrain from defining the deceits, but does this mean that now Star Traveler is also a protected species at FR? Are we forbidden to link to the posts which are deceits?
Hey Ozarkgirl,
Let's just agree to let Star Traveler put her(?) faith in the likes of David Hocking. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord.
When I stand before His throne, I'd rather be chastised for my failure to hyper analyze the text than have Him say He was disappointed that I didn't simply believe.
Remember, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the worldly.
Oh, and Star Traveler...
You're attempts to misdirect are laudable. However, the discussion isn't whether or not wine exists, whether or not they knew about wine 2000 years ago or whether or not there's a difference between wine and grape juice.
The discussion asks, "Is It OK for Christians to Drink Alcohol?
Your Alinsky tactics are noted. By the way, the tactic that drags on becomes a drag.
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