Posted on 05/01/2010 8:33:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
1. Starting with the First Vision, Mormonism teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join" (Joseph Smith History, 1:18-20)
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."
2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church". "And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign" (D&C 29:21).
3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one' (Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).
"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255)
"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."
"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."
"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left" (Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41)
"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."
"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain" (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p.346).
"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms" (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109).
"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven" ((Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85).
The Evangelization Station P.O. Box 267 Angels Camp, California, 95222, USA Telephone: 209-728-5598 E-mail: evangelization@earthlink.net www.evangelizationstation.com Pamphlet 360
TRUE LEADERS!
You are right of course. In fact it would be even better if we were all be atheist, that would makes things MUCH better...
Is the Pope greater than Joey Smith ???
Everyone has a purpose, even little old me.
I’ll let you know when I find out what my purpose is.
Sorry resty, this is misleading. There were no revivals at the time of the "official" first vision. Revivals were ongoing 3 years later and about 2 years before.
Second - from the very words of smith himself -which of all the sects was right - and don't forget resty, this same smith wrote in the bom the only true church was mormon.
Eh ???
Compromise thy name is Gop_Lady..
Is the Pope greater than Joey Smith ???
Some of us can handle more than one cause at a time. Of course some can also complain about more than one cause at a time.
I just had a thought. What if Gonzo were to start posting a series of the Journal of Discourses? Talk about a hoot!
Remember when a long gone FReeper decided to post ALL the chapters of a book on mormonism?
Searchable Journal of Discourses
This link should, at least give you some grist for your mill Gonzo ;)
It might also interest others who see this thread. Early mormon leaders in their own words which BTW, present mormon leaders do NOT want the general public to see.
Ok, so what did he learn was wrong?
Don't you mean religion has already divided us (past tense)? And if that's the case, don't you mean the real considerations are:
(a) Do we acknowledge real divisions?
(b) Do we acknowledge real divisions -- and still find a few areas to work together -- like Prop 8 in CA; working together as co-Boy Scout leaders; etc.?
Or (c) Do we downplay them?
Or (d) Do we ignore them altogether and everybody plays a game of happy-go-lucky pretense of ignorance (coupled with a cold-hearted attitude where others' eternal spiritual welfare can be damned!)
I say we do both (a) and (b) -- depending on the...
...circumstances,
...what coalitions are involved and for what reason?
...does it unnecessarily sanction legitimacy to a cultic group?
...what's at stake? -- including if it's a life and death issue?
If two paramedics are coming to save my life, and one's Lds, I'm not going to say, "Send somebody else." (But if both offered to also pray with me as they tried to save my life, I'd take the Evangelical's offer and politely decline the Mormon's...knowing the Mormon is praying to an entity who hasn't been God from all eternity)
The point is, the personages told JS (or so he says) that ALLwere an abomination.
Y’all might want to see the extensive refutation of Mormonism, which just ended(?) here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2495971/posts
As regards Mormonism and Romanism, both effectively presume authority over Scripture, declaring themselves to be uniquely, if conditionally infallible, and thus according to their interpretation that they are infallible, only their interpretation can be correct in any conflict. Appealing to the Scriptures for doctrinal certainty is contrary to Rome’s premise that doctrinal certainty can only be had thru her. Thus,
“Who else can teach him [the Catholic] religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God’s word and interprets it in the true and only sense?” “Holding to Catholic principles how can he do otherwise? How can he consistently seek after truth when he is convinced that he holds it? Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God’s word and interprets it in the true and only sense? (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter XXIII. The consistent believer. p. 93, 1904; Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York)
Upon this presumption to authority, extra-Biblical books are made equal to the Bible, and doctrines are promulgated that are contrary to the Scriptures, from Mormonism’s polygamous evolved God, to Rome’s making departed saints heavenly object of earthly prayer, etc.
In contrast, those (fundamental type evangelicals) who hold to the supremacy of Scripture - which does not disallow other sources of truth or the teaching magisterium of the church but makes them subject to it - cannot presume to infallibility but are bound to provide demonstrable substantiation for their doctrines from that objective authority which is declared to be infallible, (2Tim. 3:16) in appealing to the hearts of pious souls. (2Cor. 4:2) It is thus that those who hold to the supremacy of Scripture have historically tenaciously upheld Biblical Christian essentials such as are articulated in the Nicene Creed, while reproving both Rome and cults for their unScriptural teachings, and presume authority over.
The idea that Protestantism includes those who deny such essentials is an oft repeated canard, as it is no more true than to say such are Christian, as one must define such terms by their source, and both the founders of Protestantism and the Bible reject to those who hold to aberrant doctrine as concerns the nature of the Godhead and the gospel.
While those who hold to the supremacy of Scripture can be said to allow a limited degree of disagreement in a limited amount of doctrine, this roughly corresponds to the degree and areas in which Catholcs may disagree with what Rome teaches (re. non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium and the General Magisterium) while evangelicals in general evidence far greater conformity to basic doctrines as well as conservative values than Catholics in general. And if you divided Catholics according to their beliefs and worship styles you would have many denominations.
However, unity itself is not the prime goal of the church, but truth, and because of their share faith in the gospel which must result in one becoming born again, evangelicals manifest a remarkable unity of the Spirit, as evident in the multiplicity of interdenominational ministries and gatherings.
As for what constitutes that one true church, this most essentially is the invisible church, though it will have visible expression, as the true church only consists of born again believers, and souls are baptized into it the moment they effectually believe, (1Cor. 12:13; Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) which is with a faith that will follow Christ. (Jn. 10:27; Heb. 5:9)
The basis for ecclesiastical authenticity does not rest upon a particular organic ecclesiastical linkage, as problematic as that is for Rome, any more than the authenticity of a true Jew rests upon physical lineage, (Rm. 2:28,29) but upon essential Abrahamic-type faith in the Biblical Christ and the gospel of God, and by such faith it lives (Rm. 1:17) and overcomes. (1Jn. 5:4) As the church is not limited to one particular visible expression of that essential faith, the Bible excludes those who reject its gospel from being part of the body of Christ. (Gal. 1:6-9)
You cannot separate conservatism from it source, that being the Bible, as esp. in America, you would not have the former without the latter. http://www.conservapedia.com/Moral_decline#The_United_States
http://www.astorehouseofknowledge.info/Education_in_the_United_States
And Catholics when they were thought of at all, did not qualify as respectable. What Joseph may have thought of Catholicism in his very early years probably mirrored the ideas of his neighbors.[3] One thing is sure, when Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray in the early spring of 1820, he was not asking whether Catholicism was the true religion.
But based on public sentiment and the religious and political persecution of Mormonism over the years, Joseph came to a position of respect with regard to Catholics and their somewhat similar condition to Mormons in America.
Joseph mentioned Catholicism on several occasions and on at least one, reflected that Mormonism and Catholicism held a better hand than the Protestants. Thomas Bullock reported on rain-spotted foolscap:
“[the] old Catholic Church is worth more than all [the other churches]—here is a princ[iple]. of logic–that men have no more sense–I will illustrate [with] an old apple tree—here jumps off a branch & says I am the true tree. & you are corrupt–if the whole tree is corrupt how can any true thing come out of it—the charr[character] of the old ones have always been sland[ere]d. by all apos[tates] since the world began—
“I testify again as God never will acknowledge any apost[ate]: any man who will betray the Catholics will betray you–& if he will betray one anoth[e]r. he will betray you”[4]
http://boaporg.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/joseph-smith-and-catholicism/
I have an icon on my desk top that says “F.R.” it takes me here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/news-forum/index
Every time I come to F.R. it is to, “News/Activism”, not the “every thing” page.
All? Would that include Islam? How about J.W.s? Christian Scientists? Scientology? Or any other man made religions?
No thanks.
No respect at all.
“when Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray in the early spring of 1820, he was not asking whether Catholicism was the true religion.”
Here’s how it happened...
Ma Smith: “Joey, for the last time, go do your chores!
Li’l Joe to Ma: “Ma! I’m jest fixin’ to go into the woods to pray!
Ma: You’ve used that line one too many times!
Li’l Joe: Ma, I am going to pray. I’m not going to think about Catholicism this time.
Ma: Don’ you go sneaking around with that peep stone bilking our neighbors!
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