However, there is a difference between an open mind and an empty one.
Posted on 05/01/2010 8:33:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
1. Starting with the First Vision, Mormonism teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join" (Joseph Smith History, 1:18-20)
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..."
2. The Doctine and Covenants also has Jesus Christ condemning ALL other churches, and especially the "great and abominable church". "And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign" (D&C 29:21).
3. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one' (Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811).
"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255)
"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."
"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."
"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left" (Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41)
"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."
"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain" (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p.346).
"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries. The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms" (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109).
"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven" ((Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85).
The Evangelization Station P.O. Box 267 Angels Camp, California, 95222, USA Telephone: 209-728-5598 E-mail: evangelization@earthlink.net www.evangelizationstation.com Pamphlet 360
“If you concede that some men may be holier than others, wiser than others, or have assistance from the Holy Spirit not enjoyed by each individual, or if you concede that generations of men laboring down the centuries may add to and refine our understanding of the Scriptures in a way no single lifetime would allow...Well, then, it becomes impossible to claim that one’s own understanding is as good as anyone else’s,...”
You response misconstrues my objection to your exaltation of Rome, and denigration of Protestants, and your present implied accusation is well applied to the former.
My objection was not to the need for teachers, and the validity of acquired wisdom, and the degree to which men in Rome have evidenced that, and i affirmed the teaching office of the church, and stated quite the opposite than the ones man’s interpretation was a valid than another’s. Rather, my objection was to the presumption to supremacy over both the Scriptures and those without Rome, and the basis for ecclesiastical authenticity.
In reality, it is not those who who hold to the supremacy of Scripture that, even in our present declension (which a problem in Catholicism as well) are evidencing that they see little need for instruction by those more learned than they, as it is evangelicals have produced the most beloved extensive commentaries on Scripture in their time, and far far more go to Sunday school (as well as church*) and manifest a far greater far desire for Bible exposition than Catholics.
In addition, many evangelicals are readers of the early church leaders. In fact, to hold to the supremacy of Scripture does not require dismissing such, but it does require testing it by the only objective authority which is affirmed to be 100% infallible. However, this is a one way street, as Catholics (as noted) are discouraged from reading the like, and few even know of Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes’ Adam Clarke, John Gill, Keil & Delitzsch, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, etc.
Thus your objection cannot be that we disallow that others, past or present, may be holier, wiser, or have more assistance from the Holy Spirit, but that their authority does not rest upon them saying so, such as when fulling a certain declarative formula which they declare renders their teaching infallible. And that instead, such authority requires demonstrable conformity with that which has been established to be Scripture, along with the manner of attestation given to its truth.
*http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4
Re: denigrating. Portraying oneself as a victim of unjust attacks is a tactic often used by Mormons Catholic apologists and and liberal elites, but the reality is that these three groups who exalt themselves as the elite, who should not be questioned, and who historically have been the ones doing the most severe forms of persecution when it was within their power do so.
However, my response to the assertion that Rome is the one true Church and the denigration of Protestants was not that of wild accusations, but an objective challenge to the primary basis of these claims.
I'm quite sure any catholics on those threads are taking care of business.
See posts 201,2
The rules of this forum prohibit me from naming names, but to those who frequent these threads they are familiar. Is not a tree known by its fruits?
I said "so-called" mainstream Protestants and Evangelicals, not "real Protestants and Evangelicals. I was referring to the impostors, posing as Christians.
I find that trying to relate anything “anti-catholic” to the defense of all Christians, Protestant or Catholic, from extra biblical cults such as the LDS who represent a whole other “Christ” to be a stretch. It is apples and oranges.
Not saying there are are not some who do both, but the reality is the Protestants and the Catholics by and large recognize each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. That is why you see the Catholic church recognizing the Baptism of many Protestant movements and vice versa. (as an aside since it actually pertains to the subject at hand, we also note that the Catholics and Protestant churches don't recognize LDS baptism) with most conflict being of a political nature more than anything else, with doctrinal issues occupying the interests of a very vocal few on BOTH sides.
As it is the so called “anti-mormons” (anti mormonISM) count Protestants AND Catholics among their ranks for all who have learned what slander and lies the LDS have said about our shared Savior recognize Mormonism for what it is and heed the call of our Lord and his apostles when we are commanded to defend our faith.
Actually Barna.org is quite helpful in this. Mainstreamers (Episcopal, Congregational/UCC of Christ, most Lutheran and Methodist and American Baptist and certain Presbyterian churches), are typically institutionalized and dying, being liberal in their view of the Bible and moral issues, as can be seen by their stance on homosexuality. See and read all
http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/53
http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/54
These are rather consistent with other surveys. See my link above (post 201)
Also, http://www.conservapedia.com/Divorce
I’ve seen those videos. They do nothing of the sort. It’s their own belief and that’s that.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2505191/posts?page=10
Catholics and Evangelicals here are united in their opposition to Mormonism, which relegates both to the dung heap.
Catholics and Evangelicals and even atheists here are also overall unified here in politics and moral issues, although the moral views of latter group may conflate less with ours.
However, outside places like FR, Catholics tend to be far more liberal than Evangelicals.
As for conflict here, it is sad when it denigrates into using ad ad hominem attacks as a substitute for an substantiated argument, but because of both Catholicism and Mormonism declaring themselves supreme, and the basis for it, and because of the evangelicals basis for determining truth, there must be conflict, for God’s glory and the salvation of souls. And it was Jesus who warned that due to who/what He was, then He would be the cause of divisions, as well as the greatest qualitative unity there ever could be. Those who want unity at the expense of salvific truth promote the opposite of truth.
Ok, let me try this. What is a (so called, but that doesn’t matter) Protestant and Evangelical? I am trying to figure out what you mean when you use those terms. I have asked many people what Evangelical even means. If you mean Protestant as not Catholic, then ok. I just would like to know what you mean when you use those terms.
However, there is a difference between an open mind and an empty one.
I'm honored to be part of a group who isn't consistently justifying systemic child-rape and its cover-up.
Aren't you just precious? What group would that be?
Unlettered convicted con man, unless the term treasure hunter means hunting for other peoples' wealthy in other peoples' pockets...
I'd include just about all Presbyterians / Congregationalists in the US in this group, and actually, I'd say that the Baptists have, by and large, fared the best of the mainstream groups - or perhaps, say, have strayed the least from the Gospel. Lord knows that the Pentecostals have pretty well lost sight of the Gospel.
In this case, poking the bear with a stick merely results in howls of derisive laughter. :)
,-)
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