Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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Anyone who believes Mary to be their “Advocate and all-powerful intercessor and Mediatrix” reveals their lack of Scriptural understanding.
They need to study the word of God to show themselves approved.
= =
INDEED.
. . .
. . . IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT . . .
I don’t recall a specific such command. I think it’s clear that Paul addressed The Father, The Son and Prayed IN The Spirit.
You think that we worship Mary? You were never Catholic.
I might as well ping RNmomof7 to that remark, too.
RELATIVELY SPEAKING
those incidents and descriptions are
STILL
Very tiny splinters of toothpicks
on which to build an institutional foundation for an edifice the size of a matchbox—much less the size of the Vatican Marian Industries Inc etc.
The position of the Catholic church as to the relative importance of the Bible as a source of doctrinal authority, however, is quite clear:
“Holy Scripture is therefore not the only theological source of the Revelation made by God to His Church. Side by side with Scripture there is tradition, side by side with the written revelation there is the oral revelation. This granted, it is impossible to be satisfied with the Bible alone for the solution of all dogmatic questions. Such was the first field of controversy between Catholic theologians and the Reformers.”(Catholic Encyclopedia)
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INDEED.
Any woman graced by God to carry the Christ child to term would be exactly like Mary. She was interchangeable.
Christ is not. Christ is God. And Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and men.
= =
INDEED.
It’s clear from Scripture that God COULD have raised up a rock as a virgin from the lineage of David.
It’s interesting that no one has commented on that.
Oh, right, that would have undermined the caricatured pseudo-Mary goddess figure’s EXCLUSIVE ROLE in Salvation, interloping into the God-head etc.
Can’t have that!
Sigh.
/s
LOL...I showed you where the proof text you offered were out of context and the best response you have is to call me a name?
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I think that’s one of the priority STATIONS OF THE WHITE HANKY.
It’s about as automatic as genuflecting in front of statues for some of the rabid clique type folks.
So a little heresy is OK as long as you obey Rome ?
= = =
Seems to be too often, too true.
Jesus is so lucky to have mary to tell Him what to do, He would not know how to be God without her huh?
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At some level, the incapacities to see such attitudes in their mirrors is almost as startling as the attitudes.
INDEED:
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Nobody is denying the role Mary played in Jesus’ life as His mother.
Once He started His ministry, she had no role in it, even to the point of HIM downplaying her maternal relationship to Him.
The only time that He acknowledges it is when He passes on the responsibility of her care to John.
Her being at the cross is what any mother would do, and she wasn’t the only one there. That doesn’t make her special enough to pray to and to *Adore* and label as *Advocate*, *Medidatrix*, or *Co-Redemptrix*.
That’s all blasphemy.
Jesus NEVER ONCE made reference to her as being part of His plan of salvation. Mary didn’t. Peter didn’t. It’s found NOWHERE in the NT. If Catholics have to appeal to tradition to justify a doctrine or teaching, they have strayed far from the truth.
The interplay between Moses and the magi of Egypt readily spring to mind (Exodus 7:11 - onward) - The Pharaoh's magicians matched Moses tit-for-tat through till the plague of flies (or thereabouts)... True be it that Moses always got the upper hand in each contest, yet the magi seemed able to compete at the first.
Here is something to help you from Father Jordan Aumann
I have no need of Aumann or any other works of men (as I already requested) in this exchange - What I would prefer is that you prove the point in the Scriptures.
For your convenience, and to wit:
[MLizzy:] The late FR John Hardon explains miracles.. "In general a miracle is any effect perceptible by the senses, produced by God which surpasses the powers of nature. Immediately we must explain that there are three levels of natural laws that God can surpass and thus perform a miracle. There are the physical laws of visible nature. Thus the sudden healing of a fatal disease surpasses needless to say the powers of human physical nature. Indeed surpasses the powers of all physical nature. Walking on water is naturally impossible. The raising of a dead human being back to life exceeds all created power, and no one but God with His omnipotence can raise a dead person back to life. And just for the record, physical miracles are the lowest level of miraculous phenomena."
[roamer_1:] I wish you would try to prove this upon the Scriptures. I do not think that you can (and I care not a whit for more blather written by men).
I do not know of any passage that says satan cannot operate outside of the natural laws, nor am I inclined to believe such a thing on it's face. In fact, I dare to say the Bible contradicts you.
Source: My post to MLizzy, this thread #721
On point, your post: This thread, #479
This is a particularly crucial point, as according to Hardon, anything which defies the laws of nature can be accepted as "of God." This is a perilous notion.
I would caution not to underestimate our adversaries.
TRUE.
HOWEVER,
THE *BIBLICAL*
standard is that ‘iron sharpens iron’
and loving brothers and sisters warn about heading or falling into the ditch or off the straight and narrow—forcefully, when necessary.
It’s part of authentic CHRISTIAN LOVE
whether it’s popular or eagerly sought out, or not.
The most spiritual people I’ve ever known over my 63 years EAGERLY sought out or at least SINCERELY WELCOMED such feedback.
Our Father, Who art in heaven, Hallowed by Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever. Amen.
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AMEN. AMEN!
Thank you for your reply.
Ping to #911
Welllllllllllllllll,
I think I understand to a major degree your thinking and your feelings.
I would much prefer much more . . . middle ground . . . and collegial dialogue. Probably alone, you and I could manage such.
And, I think I have managed such in my responses to you, on the whole. I have sure tried.
Personally, I think there have been some new things asserted in this thread. Not, I think, on your side—except some in your own posts, sadly.
Dialogue across intensely held opposing religious/spirital boundaries is always likely to be tedius and problematic. That’s nothing new. It’s probably one of the most characteristic things about such dialogues. And it’s probably one of the most tedious, problematic things in life.
I don’t per se routinely blame folks for bowing out if they feel that’s their priority from God. I’m persistently tempted myself and occasionally do.
However, I believe that the issues are important and worthy of intensity, tedious persistence, dogged tenacity, enduring faithfulness etc. etc.
We do differ regarding style and tone. For me, fierce style and tone are not per se offensive even when directed at me. Even a LOT of harsh personal assaultiveness directed at me is not all THAT offensive. A lot of it is humorous and kind of weakly pathetic more than offensive.
Christ bore a LOT more in my behalf.
I also know that, FOR ME, the intensity of the dialogue sort of conotes, to me, a degree of its importance to the participants. I find that INVIGORATING—ENLIVENING. I’d RATHER discuss things that people feel passionately about. And hostility is just one expression of passionate feelings.
I also come from a heritage, I’m just realizing anew typing this post, wherein my close ancestors and relatives automatically TENDED TO DISTRUST communications that were toooo polite and kosher in conventional social graces oooey-goooey warm fuzzy ways.
The rough and tumble of intense brazen candid dialogue was always seen somehow as MUCH MORE TRUSTWORTHY, HONEST, REAL.
I’m sure a LOT of that value is deeply ingrained in me and all my sensibilities about communication in spite of all the PhD hoopla, training and experiences.
With those biased eyes, I tend to see Christ and Paul and even Peter communciating a lot from a similar mind-set and set of priorities, values.
I’ve grown up in Pentecostalism. As you might guess, or know, Pentecostals take a LOT OF HEAT from virtually everyone.
The junk I’ve taken hereon as a Pentecostal—most harshly from some Roman Catholics et al is just a microcosim of 63 years.
If there’s something I can learn in even the harshest criticism, I try to learn it, by God’s Grace and Spirit, and go on. If not, I usually can, by His Grace, manage to lay it aside, fairly quickly. It certainly doesn’t cause me to lose any sleep. I’m secure in the Biblical foundations for what I know and certainly also secure in God’s acting out HIS PENTECOSTAL STUFF IN MY LIFE year in and year out.
So all that is largely unassailable regardless of what anyone says or how harshly they say it. At some point, it’s mostly water off a duck.
I find myself withholding a candid observation about a part of this thread and perspective. I don’t know if I’ll even share it by FREEPMAIL. That’s sad to me. I think it’s a spiritually important observation, sense. I just don’t think you’d have any . . . availability to hear it.
And, given that your eyes/ears are evidently already bloody, I have no interest in slamming something hard to hear into them further—at the moment! LOL.
I do not think such threads are a waste or futile.
Certainly lurkers on all sides and in the middle have increasing fodder to prayerfully ponder. I see that as a good thing—almost regardless.
And, in spite of all of us . . . we ARE being refined and fashioned in the process one way or the other. And if our hearts and minds are focused on God properly—that can only turn out good.
For those who are authentic Believers on either side, HE HAS PROMISED TO WORK ALL SUCH THINGS TO OUR GOOD and I think that includes to our spiritual growth.
My 2 cents.
LUBBRO.
Oh?
I’d be very very hesitant to say such a thing even to a Roman Catholic I thought didn’t have a very authentic relationship with God.
GOD IS SOVEREIGN.
HE ROUTINELY
DOES ODD, UNUSUAL THINGS WITH INDIVIDUALS OF ALL KINDS.
—with Christians and with pagans.
—with mature Christians and with babes in Christ.
I’d think anyone who walked closely with HIM, would automatically KNOW that.
I’ve noted I was wrong in the religion forum more often and more vulnerably than anyone else I know of lo these 10+ years.
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