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Give Your All To . . . ? . . . . [A Rel Forum Research thread--Open]
Bible, Vultus Christi, Quix's noggin ^ | 28 APR 2010; 30 APR 2010 | Jesus, Mark Kirby & Quix

Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix

GIVE IT ALL TO . . . ? . . . .

--A Research Thread--

. . .

.

7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this:

Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your Kingdom come soon.
May your will be done on earth,
as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today the food we need,[a]
12 and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who sin against us.
13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,[b]
but rescue us from the evil one.[c]

--New Living Translation

7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.]

8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9Pray, therefore, like this:

Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed (kept holy) be Your name.
10Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors.
13And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.

--Amplified

Pray with Simplicity

5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?

6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace.

7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this:

Our Father in heaven,
Reveal who you are.
Set the world right;
Do what's best— as above, so below.
Keep us alive with three square meals.
Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.
Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.
You're in charge!
You can do anything you want!
You're ablaze in beauty!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

14-15"In prayer there is a connection between what God does and what you do. You can't get forgiveness from God, for instance, without also forgiving others. If you refuse to do your part, you cut yourself off from God's part.

16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well.
--THE MESSAGE

Mark Kirby:

O Mother of Good Counsel,
Mother of Perpetual Help,
I turn with confidence to thy maternal Heart,
and I renew my total and irrevocable consecration to thee.

I am all thine, Most Holy Mary,
and all that I have is thine.
I give thee my past with its burdens.
I give thee this present moment with its anxieties and fears.
I give thee my future and all that it holds.

There is no part of my life that is not open to thee,
no place so secret, or so darkened by sin
that thy presence and thy influence
are not wholly and ardently desired there.

I want to be completely transparent with thee,
utterly simple, guileless, and childlike.
Thou knowest, O Mother,
all my preoccupations,
all my intentions,
and all those recommended to my prayer.
Take them, I beseech thee, to thy Immaculate Heart
and, as my Advocate, my all-powerful intercessor, and my Mediatrix,
present them to thy Son.
Seeing them presented by thee
and held in thy maternal Heart,
there is nothing that He will not do
to give to each intention the one response
worthy of the infinite mercy and love of His Sacred Heart.

Praying in this way, I can be at rest,
for thou art my Mother,
and all that I entrust to thee will be,
I am sure,
received, and considered, and cared for
with a Mother's love.
Amen.

.

.

.


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; exclusivity; focus; holiness; marybashing; worship
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To: MarkBsnr
Put something up on a thread and let's see what happens.

Just might do that. Although I don't believe an open thread would be conductive of a real exchange of ideas. To many partisans.

"That's your opinion. However, the thousands that have visited my site are of a different opinion, and have stated a desire to learn more - asking reasonable and intelligent questions; many are Catholics (CINO or not)."

Don't flatter yourself. Any website will get thousands of hits per year especially if if the right keywords are put into Google's database.

No "flattery" involved, just telling it as it is. I surely don't know what those "hitting" the web site think, but I do know what those who communicated to me in their messages about the articles they read have said. It's not a matter of keywords, etc.

In other words, you started from the position of the Reformation. Would you say that you are more or less on the same road?

I don't know about that for I never looked at their position when I started - didn't care to. I guess you could say that I am (to use Mad Dawg's expression) kinda sorta on a similar road in a strange sort of way. The Bishop we spent over two hours with agreed that we were correct in what we had found, and even told us that we should continue our work to try to change the church's view on them - but he also warned us that there was no guarantee that we or anyone could get the ears of those responsible for what the church teaches. That's the truth!

Any encouragement of deviation from the Church of Jesus the Christ has the same net effect.

I think that could be said about all the denominations of Christianity, including the RCC. That's what "partisan" thinking does! "Dang the truth", they in effect are saying!

2,581 posted on 05/11/2010 6:52:10 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: stfassisi
For one I have been too busy these days.Secondly,it's your idea of Biblical approval I reject.Some of your teachings have been rejected throughout Christian History.

I stand by what I said, for I believe it to be true. You have not convinced me otherwise. When I said "biblical approval" I meant for you to back up your beliefs with some scriptural precept...and I think you might have some of that in your background of beliefs - most believers do, regardless of their religious background. However, that background may be based on non-scriptural thought, like stories and the imaginations of meandering minds!

2,582 posted on 05/11/2010 6:58:47 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Forest Keeper
Whoa. Theological debate is full of surprises!

(As I now reveal my total out-of-touchness) Is her real name Parvati? Parvati is the spouse of Vishnu, I believe.

2,583 posted on 05/11/2010 7:11:01 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Ken4TA; stfassisi

An important Scriptural precept is right here:
Acts 15:28
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.”

From nearly the beginning, the Church has made reliable declarations of matters of faith and morals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We think this is at least part of what John 20:21-23 is about.


2,584 posted on 05/11/2010 7:17:26 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Ken4TA

“”I meant for you to back up your beliefs with some scriptural precept””

In the essence of time,the following site covers quite a bit of it-all backed up with Scripture and historical writings from the early Christian’s through the ages that back up correct interpretations

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

Perhaps you will learn something


2,585 posted on 05/11/2010 7:23:15 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Mad Dawg
Nonetheless,let me take a crack at it:

Gratias tibi ago!

I suppose I am using the term in a very broad way, to mean interpreting the Scriptures to the end that they inform our thought and guide our lives.

Yes, the term, I suppose, could be used in a broad way. However, I use the term to describe a methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text. In doing so I look at how those of the writings time would understand what is said. That especially relates to the time period that the Scriptures were written in. If one can't understand what it meant to those who read it at that time, then we are in trouble - big, serious trouble! Yes, I agree that the Scriptures should inform our thought and guide our lives exactly as they formed and guided the lives of Christians at the time they were written.

"Exegesis" in my usage (which I do not propose as normative, I'm just trying to be clear) would be the task whose tools would be translation, all the various "geschichten", 'comparing and contrasting' with other Biblical texts and so forth.

Hmmm...I guess I'm confused with what you are really saying here. Are you saying that what you just said you don't propose as "normative"? Exegesis is the main method of all translators. Esiogesis should never be used, period, although you can find that used all too often in sermons, teachings and commentaries. I'll let you guess about what methodology is used by those using something other than exegesis.

So if I had a "scheme" it would be
Exegesis -- mostly consulting the exegetes
Lectio Divina(of a sort)
Hermeneutics (which might involve excursions into theologians, poets, whatever)
Homiletics (compose that puppy!)
Preaching (or teaching)

Okay, that's something. It's basically what I do, although I'm quite blunt in my choice of words. I appreciate your response, seriously. Again, thank you. If you read some of my more explicit writings, having what you stated here in your mind, you may see the hermeneutics I used.

2,586 posted on 05/11/2010 7:53:07 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA
A bit of an idle poking of fun but with a dash of truth, I'll say. I'm no great scholar but I find what I need in dictionaries, lexicons and other reference works produced by those who have felt the need to make their studies a life's work and I am in their debt.

But just as important, at least as important, is, in my mind, letting the Scriptures speak for themselves. By that I mean that the Scriptures reflect what God wants them to say and He's not confused or contradictory of himself.
If I find what is hard to understand or seems contradictory I know I need to dig further because I know the message and understanding of the Bible was meant foe everyone, educated or not.

An example: Luke 22:19, reads in the AV,
“And he took bread, and gave thanks and brake it, and gave unto them, saying This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.”

So was it bread they ate and “this MEANS my body”, or human flesh and “this IS my body”?

So hermeneutics? Fine so long as the process doesn't overshadow the purpose.

2,587 posted on 05/11/2010 8:00:11 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Mad Dawg
An important Scriptural precept is right here:
Acts 15:28 “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.”

(Excellent! I agree with that wholeheartedly!)

From nearly the beginning, the Church has made reliable declarations of matters of faith and morals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We think this is at least part of what John 20:21-23 is about.

Hmmm...and was it only the Apostels and the Elders in the church, or did it include the whole church in Acts 15 account? In the RCC, do any of the dogmas and doctrines have the votes of the whole membership, or is it just the Hierarchy of the church - especially knowing that the majority (almost all members) haven't the faintest idea of how the dogmas and doctrines came about?

Concerning John 20, all believers have the Holy Spirit of God within them. And any believer can forgive anyone who sins against him. No one can forgive the sin one commits against another other than the one sinned against - i.e., a priest forgiving a person who sinned against another person who is not involved in the forgiving process. Naw, there is no sense saying more on this...neither of us would get anywhere :-( (It would take a dedicated thread to just start the issue!)

2,588 posted on 05/11/2010 8:18:07 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: stfassisi
In the essence of time,the following site covers quite a bit of it-all backed up with Scripture and historical writings from the early Christian’s through the ages that back up correct interpretations
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

Nope, doesn't educate me at all - too much speculation and reading way too much in the scriptures quoted. That's the problem with dogmas and doctrines of the RCC.

2,589 posted on 05/11/2010 8:21:39 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Forest Keeper

Are you saying that

all the Vatican related images of Mother Mary are exceedingly inaccurate???

Or is that the new version slated for rolling out with the global government???

Or are you trying to suggest that Mary is much better preserved than even the Vatican dares depict???

Or ????


2,590 posted on 05/11/2010 8:32:39 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: count-your-change
A bit of an idle poking of fun but with a dash of truth, I'll say. I'm no great scholar but I find what I need in dictionaries, lexicons and other reference works produced by those who have felt the need to make their studies a life's work and I am in their debt.

Definitely!

But just as important, at least as important, is, in my mind, letting the Scriptures speak for themselves. By that I mean that the Scriptures reflect what God wants them to say and He's not confused or contradictory of himself. If I find what is hard to understand or seems contradictory I know I need to dig further because I know the message and understanding of the Bible was meant foe everyone, educated or not.

That is what everyone should do constantly!

An example: Luke 22:19, reads in the AV,
“And he took bread, and gave thanks and brake it, and gave unto them, saying This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.”

So was it bread they ate and “this MEANS my body”, or human flesh and “this IS my body”?

So hermeneutics? Fine so long as the process doesn't overshadow the purpose.

Please expound on this a little further - it could prove interesting.

2,591 posted on 05/11/2010 8:32:41 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: Ken4TA

Interest.

Well put.


2,592 posted on 05/11/2010 8:35:20 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Ken4TA
Acts 15:6 seems to say it was a meeting of Apostles and elders.

and was it only the Apostels and the Elders in the church, or did it include the whole church in Acts 15 account?

Acts15:6 seems to say it was a meeting of Apostles and elders. Sounds like a council to me.

In the RCC, do any of the dogmas and doctrines have the votes of the whole membership, or is it just the Hierarchy of the church

The laity have influence but no franchise. For example the Marian dogmata were taken under consideration partially because lay people wanted them to be considered.

Concerning John 20, all believers have the Holy Spirit of God within them.

Clearly. And there are diversities of gifts.

And any believer can forgive anyone who sins against him.

So far so good.

No one can forgive the sin one commits against another other than the one sinned against - i.e., a priest forgiving a person who sinned against another person who is not involved in the forgiving process.

It seems to me unlikely that this episode and the words would be reported if Jesus was just saying what nearly everybody thinks. I guess your studies lead you to call onto question the entire concept of Apostolicity.

2,593 posted on 05/11/2010 8:50:39 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Quix

No. It can’tbe Mary. She wears blue or red.


2,594 posted on 05/11/2010 8:53:34 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Ahhhhhhhh

Nice the initiated have SOME clue!

LOL.


2,595 posted on 05/11/2010 8:58:10 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Ken4TA
{Me:} Exegesis" in my usage (which I do not propose as normative, I'm just trying to be clear) would be the task whose tools would be translation, all the various "geschichten", 'comparing and contrasting' with other Biblical texts and so forth.

{You} Hmmm...I guess I'm confused with what you are really saying here. Are you saying that what you just said you don't propose as "normative"?

No, I was saying my usage of the term was not intended to be normative. I wasn't saying "This is what the word means," I was saying, "This is what I mean when I use the word," that's all.

2,596 posted on 05/11/2010 9:01:04 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Ken4TA
Quite simply, in the general, when the translator sets about his work he has to decide what approach to translating he will take. Will he produce an interlinear with a strict word for word translation or a free style paraphrasing or something in between?

Most will go for in between since bringing the meaning to the reader is more important than the exact words used but to avoid taking undue libertiies with the sense of the original there has to be real justification for the words chosen.

Lexicons, etc. are useful reference materials but no writer of the Scriptures had them to consult or is bound by them. Even today we don't know the full range of meanings of Greek words and usages.

So at Luke 22:19 the Greek word “estin” is represented by the English “is”. And despite the equivocation's of a certain well known person, we all know what “is” means, don't we?

But “is” is the English word the translator chose to use in place of another, another that might just as well, or even more accurately, reflect what Jesus’ words meant since it's possible/likely he was not speaking koine’ Greek here.

Were they going to eat human flesh or bread? From the wording of the verse alone it can't be answered.

2,597 posted on 05/11/2010 9:15:52 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Okay, gotcha. I'm beginning to see your method of arriving at what you see the Bible saying and how you go about saying what you say on topics. Not too bad :-)
2,598 posted on 05/11/2010 9:18:17 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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To: count-your-change

Just in passing. I don’t know from Aramaic, but I always figured He said, “This my body,” since I don’t THINK Semitic languages used a copular verb a whole lot.


2,599 posted on 05/11/2010 9:34:12 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Acts15:6 seems to say it was a meeting of Apostles and elders. Sounds like a council to me.

It was a meeting, yes. But not of all the churches that had been formed around the known world at that time. I find it was James who was the presider at that meeting, gathering information so as to make a decision. When he made that decision it was not only those in the meeting that agreed, but the "whole church", i.e. all believers who made the decision to send the letter that was composed - the whole context considered.

I guess your studies lead you to call onto question the entire concept of Apostolicity.

Not at all. Those who follow in the footsteps of the apostles should be listened to as they are in agreement with the teaching of the Christ Jesus. It's just that I don't accept the concept of a successorship along the Latin model. I don't find that in the Bible and in the early writings of individuals of the churches. It's that simple!

2,600 posted on 05/11/2010 9:38:15 AM PDT by Ken4TA (The truth hurts those who don't like truth!)
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