Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 When you pray, dont babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Dont be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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Still no answer. Very odd.
LOLOL!
” However prayer is a part of worship and is reasonably defined as such:”
Many things are PART of others. Protties have NOTHING but PRAYER as worship, hence the confusion. Sad.
Do people pray to them? Do people attribute to them characteristics that only God has? You can certainly honor someone without worshiping them. But when you attribute to someone all of God's characteristics and roles, and pray to them for things that only God can give, thereby responding to them in virtually the same way that you respond to Christ, you're going to have an awfully hard time convincing someone that what you're doing is not worshiping that person.
How is this worship?
By attributing to her characteristics and roles that belong to God only and praying to her as one would pray to God for things that only God can give.
It is VENERATION of the most HOLY women of all times.
A rose by any other name.....
Veneration, worship. A distinction without a difference.
Is the Mother of God NOT worthy of veneration?
God didn't have a mother. Christ did.
Calling Mary the *Mother of God* carries with it and implies a meaning different that calling her the *Mother of Christ*.
You can, through convoluted reasoning, justify the title all you want, but the two different titles send two different messages, subtle though they may be. And the message sent to non-Catholics is not as insignificant as Catholics like to portray it.
Words mean things and if Catholics are going to use improper words, they shouldn't be surprised that they're misinterpreted.
OTOH, if so many people are making the same error in interpreting what the Catholic Church teaches, it behooves the RCC to look at what it's saying because obviously something is getting lost in the translation, and it can't justify throwing the blame for that back on the people who misunderstood. The people making their case need to make sure they are precise and clear about what they teach. It's not the hearers responsibility to get the message across correctly.
If Catholics are going to call Mary the Mother of God, then they are going to have to live with the rest of the non-Catholic world thinking that Catholics believe that God had a mother and that Mary is greater than Him.
If they don't like it, then they should say what they mean.
You see, my problem with this is that you presented indulgences as being about the forgiveness of sin.
Since a few minutes online or in conversation with a learned Catholic would show how very wrong that was, there is a certain, well, hiccup in the matter of assessing the accuracy of the perceptions you present.
If you are mistaken in a matter any fool, such as myself, could get to the bottom of in very little time, how can I reasonably believe your account of a difficult to ascertain thing?
Duh.
And this from someone who adheres to a church which teaches that anyone who is not a member of it is going to hell?
If one doesn't believe just the right Catholic stuff in the right Catholic way, the church rejects (ex-communicates) them and gives its servants the right to torment them (read Inquisition).
Rather ironic.
LOL. How much error does one have to understand and witness before one decides to shake the dust from their feet and go elsewhere?
"Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" -- 1 Corinthians 5:6
Salvation does not require a Ph.D. It requires God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, received by a mind renewed by the Holy Spirit and a repentant heart of flesh made sorrowful in the knowledge of its sins against the Triune God.
It just doesn't take a lot to realize Rome is heading in the wrong direction...
“Do people pray to them? “
Of course they do - a prayer is another name for a petition. Often people petition other people.
“Do people attribute to them characteristics that only God has?”
Why would they?
“Veneration, worship. A distinction without a difference.”
How foolish. Of course there is a HUGE difference. Worship belongs to God. Alone. You have just conceded that Veneration can be to man. Your words: “You can certainly honor someone without worshiping them.”
You are hung up on a REALITY, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, Our Lord, both True Man and True God, Mary His Mother.
THAT bothers you. Why?
Just clarifying. It could have been read that way.
I just propose that there is only one Body of Christ, and to be saved is to be a member of that Body.
What the Catholic church teaches is that there is one body and an that to be a member of that body is to be saved.
A difference and not an insignificant one at that.
“Salvation does not require a Ph.D.”
Then why pretend to haver one “Doctor” Echoberg?
I need to read that again and should have my kids read it as well.
Sometimes it certainly is tempting to give into the feeling that authentic fruitful redemptive dialogue is impossible between our two camps.
Sigh.
Namely, write down your priorities as you see them, e.g. 1) God, 2) Family, 3) Country...
Then ask your friends to write down your priorities as they see them in you (what you say and do.)
If there is a difference, there is a problem.
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
Apparently you didn’t take English lit.
Prayers to Msry IS worship of Mary, a no no by all means.
To-for, it makes a difference but your comments are enlightening, yes, quite so.
Nope. We read your words. We understand your tags. And we disagree with those words and morphing tags because they conflict with Scripture.
We're supposed to disagree with error. That's what's called "defending the faith." The Christian faith.
EXCELLENT POINTS.
That’s one of the reasons . . . in addition to the group process training and leading . . . that I’ve long had a habit of checking my perceptions of myself out with those who see me most.
THX.
LOLOL!
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