Give Your All To . . . ? . . . . [A Rel Forum Research thread--Open]

Bible, Vultus Christi, Quix's noggin ^ | 28 APR 2010; 30 APR 2010 | Jesus, Mark Kirby & Quix

[Quix]

GIVE IT ALL TO . . . ? . . . .

--A Research Thread--

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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. 10 May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today the food we need,[a] 12 and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. 13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,[b] but rescue us from the evil one.[c] --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed (kept holy) be Your name. 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors. 13And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: Our Father in heaven, Reveal who you are. Set the world right; Do what's best— as above, so below. Keep us alive with three square meals. Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others. Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil. You're in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes. Yes. Yes. 14-15"In prayer there is a connection between what God does and what you do. You can't get forgiveness from God, for instance, without also forgiving others. If you refuse to do your part, you cut yourself off from God's part. 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. --THE MESSAGE

Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, Mother of Perpetual Help, I turn with confidence to thy maternal Heart, and I renew my total and irrevocable consecration to thee. I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, and all that I have is thine. I give thee my past with its burdens. I give thee this present moment with its anxieties and fears. I give thee my future and all that it holds. There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, no place so secret, or so darkened by sin that thy presence and thy influence are not wholly and ardently desired there. I want to be completely transparent with thee, utterly simple, guileless, and childlike. Thou knowest, O Mother, all my preoccupations, all my intentions, and all those recommended to my prayer. Take them, I beseech thee, to thy Immaculate Heart and, as my Advocate, my all-powerful intercessor, and my Mediatrix, present them to thy Son. Seeing them presented by thee and held in thy maternal Heart, there is nothing that He will not do to give to each intention the one response worthy of the infinite mercy and love of His Sacred Heart. Praying in this way, I can be at rest, for thou art my Mother, and all that I entrust to thee will be, I am sure, received, and considered, and cared for with a Mother's love. Amen.

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[wmfights]

BB: No Catholic believes Mary is in any way shape or form a god, let alone a goddess

Actions speak louder than words. My son attends a RC high school that just built a grotto. I regularly see RC's kneel down in front of the statue of Mary praying to her expecting their prayers to receive special treatment because of it. This behavior is promoted and thought to be pious.

You can try and finesse this blasphemous behavior any way you want, but Bible reading Christians know it's wrong.

Ex.20:4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image...(5)you shall not bow down to them nor serve them...

[Mad Dawg]

This is what I mean by unjust process:
I responded to what you wrote. Now you are taking me to task for failing to answer what you did not write.

And I think you don't get it. And you don't get it because, so to speak, you guys are at the beginning of it.

You have to imagine this: I think, "Whoa! Mary is, in a way, the dispenser of Grace!" Then I think about the unique and amazing place she has in the hielsgeschichte.

As I have written elsewhere: Mary REALLY DID give herself to God (by the operation of His prevenient grace.) And having submitted her will to His, she became a bearer of His Love. She brought Love into the world -- LITERALLY.

But maybe the use of literal and figurative is too cut-and-dried. If I offer myself to God (asking Him for the grace to mean it) will I not be a conduit of God's Love? And while some may dicker and tweak, the truth is the God is Love, and Jesus is God "with skin on," God made visible and palpable. If I am a conduit for any love it is Jesus who has made me a conduit for himself.

So I can (and do) call upon Him AND say "let my soul like Mary//Be thine earthly sanctuary." [That's a Protestant hymn.]

From MY POV, it's not an "interpretation" that Mary was like the Ark of the Covenant; it's just, well clear. The Ark had the written Word of God within it. Mary had the Sho' 'Nuff Word of God within her.

Mary simply WAS the guardian and the 'dispenser' (if you can think of parturition as being like one of those Pez things...) of Jesus.

So, we would say, just sit with that. Think about it. "Dig" it. Here was a woman who had within her womb Him through whom the worlds were made.

Now when a non-catholic comes to the exultant and amazed praise which arise from just "sitting with" the idea that Mary did what she did, but also suffered what she suffered ... and as the parent of a child whom the docs said would die, I guess I should say that anybody who doesn't think that's WORSE than having a sword pierce your heart is asleep or dead or, if I have my way, about to become dead, if you get my meaning.

(Don't worry, I'll let you all off ... this time.)

And then add a soupcon of Col 1:24. And consider that God is calling us sons and heirs.

Well after a while, Mary starts looking pretty good.

I am entirely serious that Protestants, especially those brought up in an anti-Catholic environment, will find this all a bit of a reach.

But they are looking at the whole thing eager to construe it the worst possible way. And since the average Catholic is NOT a thoughtful and articulate theologian, the average Catholic is going to give an inadequate account of Marian devotion.

But that proves nothing and means little. On both sides my family is parsons and lawyers. We're all about theology and careful expression and awareness of fine distinctions. I am, you might say, predestined to give an articulate account of Marian Devotion. But somebody whom God has graced with love and virtue but not verbal finesse will probably be a better servant of God Most High, while saying things that would curl the hair of the average Protestant (and of a great many Catholics.)

[Mad Dawg]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Did I say He can lie?

Evidently you guys think lying is a good, a thing that is an ability. I am arguing that lying AND wanting to lie is a defect, a failure, an abortion, a freak, NOT an ability but a disability. God has no disabilities. Whatever He wants to do He does.

That doesn't mean he does -- or wants to do -- what sinful man wants and does. But that is not a "cannot." It is a glorious CAN, for with Him it is always Yes,

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Matt. 5:32 Therefore whoever confesses Me before men him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. (33)But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Amen, William. God knows what words mean and which are born of the Holy Spirit and which are not.

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by they words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37

Just think of the enormous amount of idle words spent glorifying the creature when the Creator deserves ALL our praise.

[narses]

. I regularly see RC's kneel down in front of the statue of Mary praying to her expecting their prayers to receive special treatment because of it. This behavior is promoted and thought to be pious.

And?

Do people bow to kings, salute officers in the military, doff their hats in respect to others? How is this worship? It is VENERATION of the most HOLY women of all times. Is the Mother of God NOT worthy of veneration?

[Lorica]

My son attends a RC high school

Why does your son attend a Catholic high school?

[Mad Dawg]

These were not odd isolated people who thought like this. It was the VAST majority of a large population.

I take it you interviewed every one of them (so that you KNEW what they thought, rather than just assuming they thought what your parents thought), collated your data, filtered it for education and years spent studying theology, and in general made sure it was representative of the Holy Church throughout all the world.

You did make SURE your date was representative right? You wouldn't decide an organization was thoroughly wrong without scrupulous study, would you?

[Mad Dawg]

I regularly see RC's kneel down in front of the statue of Mary praying to her expecting their prayers to receive special treatment because of it.

Wait. You can SEE what people expect?

Wow! What does it look like? What is the appearance of an expectation? Do they have colors? If not, how do you see them? Are you psychic?

You might on some occasions see me kneel in front of an icon of Dominic. I'd be interested to know what else you saw at that time. But I can tell you confidently that you would not see an expectation that I would receive treatment any more special that that which you receive from God. To God each one of us is "special."

[narses]

Dr. Eckleburg wrote:”Just think of the enormous amount of idle words spent glorifying the creature when the Creator deserves ALL our praise.”

So we should NEVER praise ANYONE for ANYTHING except God? What odd cult teaches such nonsense?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

She is dispenser of all graces because in giving birth she, so to speak, 'dispensed' Jesus, who is the sum of all Graces.

That is blasphemous. The creature does not "dispense" God.

And only God "dispenses grace" through faith in Jesus Christ.

I feel as if I allowed myself to be manipulated and controlled.

Ya got that right.

[Lorica]

Wait. You can SEE what people expect?

I'm holding my icon of the Blessed Mother right now! Quick! What am I thinking?

[Mad Dawg]

I'd praise you for making this point, only that would be idle of me.

;-)

Some think God is insulted when we see what He has done and say, "Wow, THAT is something else!"

[Quix]

Again,

I’m too tired to deal with your longer pieces well enough to do you justice for your efforts.

They will be in the que . . . that’s the best I can do, tonight.

I certainly have no intent to harrass you for not answering something I didn’t ask you to answer.

[Running On Empty]

I think your last sentence here is Truth in poetic form.

It is all those little souls out there who have nothing brilliant or clever or startling to say ( and they know this to be true), but who love the Lord with their whole mind and heart and soul and are graced mercifully while remaining obscure. Let’s face it—they are anawim (the poor and little ones)

For them it is all so simple. “God is kind and merciful.”

I have been so blessed to have known many people like this and I will always believe that they are the “salt of earth” and the “light of the world”. They inspired me so much more than they ever realized. That was part of their humility—they didn’t realize it.

[narses]

“Actions speak louder than words.”

I agree.

“My son attends a RC high school that just built a grotto.”

You send your son and your money to support this.

“Actions speak louder than words.”

Indeed they do.

[wmfights]

Just think of the enormous amount of idle words spent glorifying the creature when the Creator deserves ALL our praise.

Amen

It's the greatest gift to tell someone The Gospel. On the few occasions I've been so blessed most people were disappointed because it's so easy.

[narses]

Idle worship is a teenage kind of think. Long ago I was a teen.

[metmom]

You can insist on reading it as if it says: "If you do not, before you die, submit yourself to the Pope, they're gonna set the oven to 'extra crispy.'" OR you can read it as I do, that if all those whom God chooses also had the grace to see that BY THAT CHOICE of GOD's they are subject to the Roman Pontiff, they're walk would have a whole lot more consolations than it does.

Does that not put you in the pre-destinationist camp? Other FRoman Catholics have vociferously denied any Catholic belief in pre-destination.

And such invincibly ignorant apostates cannot really be held to be in mortal sin because they were misled by a buynch of really lousy Catholics who used religion as cover for their proposing their lousy, neurotic, problems.

In essence, then, nothing in the Catholic church has really change in regards to those outside of it going to hell. All Vatican II did was make a few exceptions to the teaching that weren't there before. It never came out and explicitly denied the teachings of the Catholic church for the proceeding 1500 years, that is that those outside the Catholic church are going to hell.

There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position,

So, in effect, the RCC is gradually changing its doctrine. Which is right then? What it taught for the first 1500 years of its existence? Or what has been taught recently? Since truth is truth and stands by itself and is not subject to change, then tell me, which is right? Before or after Vatican II?

[Quix]

Tomorrow will likely be fairly busy so I won’t promise I’ll get to those tomorrow. Will make an effort to do so.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It's the greatest gift to tell someone The Gospel. On the few occasions I've been so blessed most people were disappointed because it's so easy.

Amen.

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36