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You can insist on reading it as if it says: "If you do not, before you die, submit yourself to the Pope, they're gonna set the oven to 'extra crispy.'" OR you can read it as I do, that if all those whom God chooses also had the grace to see that BY THAT CHOICE of GOD's they are subject to the Roman Pontiff, they're walk would have a whole lot more consolations than it does.

Does that not put you in the pre-destinationist camp? Other FRoman Catholics have vociferously denied any Catholic belief in pre-destination.

And such invincibly ignorant apostates cannot really be held to be in mortal sin because they were misled by a buynch of really lousy Catholics who used religion as cover for their proposing their lousy, neurotic, problems.

In essence, then, nothing in the Catholic church has really change in regards to those outside of it going to hell. All Vatican II did was make a few exceptions to the teaching that weren't there before. It never came out and explicitly denied the teachings of the Catholic church for the proceeding 1500 years, that is that those outside the Catholic church are going to hell.

There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position,

So, in effect, the RCC is gradually changing its doctrine. Which is right then? What it taught for the first 1500 years of its existence? Or what has been taught recently? Since truth is truth and stands by itself and is not subject to change, then tell me, which is right? Before or after Vatican II?

Please. You are quoting my quoting something YOU said, and then using that as an argument against me. It's the exclusivist/inclusivist line.

NO I am not a predestinationist, not simply. I just propose that there is only one Body of Christ, and to be saved is to be a member of that Body.

As to what the Cathnolic Church taught in the first q500 years of its existence, whether you think the Church was founded sometime in the first century or the 4th, Dante wrote within the first 1500 years of the Church's history.