Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion

ZENIT ^ | 2001-07-17

[delacoert]

VATICAN CITY, JULY 17, 2001 (Zenit.org).- Prompted by questions about Mormon practices, the Vatican recently confirmed that the sect´s baptism is invalid.

Last month the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith noted the invalidity of the Mormons´ baptism given their misconception of the Trinity and, consequently, the identity of Christ.

Father Luis Ladaria, a theologian at the Pontifical Gregorian University, explained today in L´Osservatore Romano the Church´s view about Mormon baptism.

"The baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," the theologian said, "differ essentially as regards faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name baptism is conferred and, at the same time, in regard to Christ, who instituted it."

Father Ladaria pointed out that even non-Catholics can administer baptism validly, as the minister of the sacrament is, in fact, Christ himself. But the baptizer must do so in the name of the Trinity and "with the intention of doing what the Church does," he added.

Joseph Smith founded the Mormons in New York state in 1830. He was inspired to find the place were golden tablets were placed, which expressed the revelations of the prophet Mormon, written by him and his son Moroni. Mormonism is a "sacred history" rewritten in America, in which God revealed the "latter-day saints."

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith´s response is based on research requested by the U.S. bishops.

Father Ladaria said the formula used by the Mormons for baptism states that, "having received Christ´s mandate, I baptize you in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

But there is no real invocation of the Trinity, the theologian said, because, for the Mormons, the "Father," "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are not the three persons in which the one divinity subsists, but three gods who form a divinity.

The term divinity itself has no "substantial" content, because, according to this Mormon concept, divinity has come into existence given that the three gods have decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about the salvation of man. This divinity and man share the same nature and are "substantially the same," according to Mormon belief.

Such divergence in doctrine implies, Father Landaria said, that the Mormon minister does not have the intention, when baptizing, of doing what the Catholic Church does when it confers baptism.

[Godzilla]

It is also found in JoD vol 8 reno - and yes, I did read it completely. He spoke it in 1860 - not refering to 1860 - but in either case lsd had moved its flag to utah and was not being chased by mobs at that time. Fact is the RLDS (CoC) remained in Missouri and were not killed off. It is one thing to mangle the bible - it is another to mangle your own prophets words and history.

[Godzilla]

-- you want to keep propping up your original distortion that Young was somehow prompted by some phantom mob when he said this.

It seems to be a common theme that one of the psychological defenses that pop up is that of persecution. Another morg apologist from canada recently was wetting himself about the impending concentration camps Christians were preparing for mormons. 1860 Young is enthroned in SLC - absolutely no signs of any mobs - infact, his control is so established that the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre is committed. The only threat to mormons is from Young himself and his dictatorial leadership (BTW, Young's "Blood Atonement" doctrine were well in play by 1860).

The "antis" here are always accused of misrepresenting mormonism. It turns out that more times than not, it is the apologetics presented by mormons that misrepresents mormonism.

[Reno232]

You read it completely? Really? The very next passage after the one cited is as follows:

“This whole people were cast out for believing that God spake to Joseph Smith and chose him to be his messenger-his Apostle-to this generation. I testify to you that we were not cast out for teaching and practicing the Patriarchal doctrine, as our enemies now declare, for at that time it had not been published to the world, but it was for believing, preaching, and practicing the doctrines of the New Testament; for believing in the events to take place in the latter days, as foretold by the ancient Prophets; and, for believing the declarations of Joseph Smith, that Jesus was indeed the Christ and the Savior of all men, but especially of them that believe, and that he had set his hand the second time to gather his people, to establish his Kingdom, to build up Zion, redeem Jerusalem, empty the earth of wickedness and bring in everlasting righteousness. 9:366”.

Now, where in THAT passage is B.Y. referring to 1860? He talks about being cast out. As you very aptly put, in 1860 the saints were within the confines of Utah, having already been cast out. Were they being cast out in 1860? Of course I could cite numerous other passages to make the point, but this should suffice.

Misrepresentations? Let the lurkers decide. As for me, I have no more time for this nonsense & have much more positive pursuits today, like making a living. Have fun. If you post just one positive post today, it may make a difference in your life. Try it, you’ll like it. I can’t possible imagine how dark it must be to spend every day spewing vitriol against your fellow man, even if you do think it’s in the name of the Lord. My prayers are w/ you & the rest of the cabal.

[Godzilla]

You read it completely? Really? The very next passage after the one cited is as follows:

ROTFLAICGU - The origional citation is from JoD Volume 8 pg 177- and you CLAIM JoD VOLUME 9, pg 366 IS THE VERY NEXT PASSAGE AFTER THE ONE CITED.

Oh please stop, stop before you dig yourself further in ROTFLAICGU. You had to jump to an entirely DIFFERENT volume of JoD to come up with this. BAWAHAHAHAHA.

Oh and it gets better - this VERY NEXT PASSAGE was preached some 2 YEARS LATER (hahaahaha, can't breathe, . . . can't breath. . . ) Is this what you call putting an 1860 speech into 'context', citing a speech two years later (but it's only the very next passage, bahwhahahahaha.

Now, where in THAT passage is B.Y. referring to 1860?

He wasn't because it was 1862!!!!

Of course I could cite numerous other passages to make the point, but this should suffice.

Oh, please do - I can use the laughs today

Misrepresentations? Let the lurkers decide.

Of course, Young in 1860 stated clearly "...every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist...” JoD V 8, p177, he was not speaking about any 'mobs' or anything of the sort confined to that specific period - the context clearly shows that he was refering to all non-mormons through to even today.

Reno cites another speech given 2 years later (why, just the next passage dontchaknow)(JoD v9 p 366) as the 'context' for those remarks two years earlier.

Finally, the complaint against Colofornian's citation was that " . . he (Young) referring to the leaders of the churches AT THE TIME . . " Clearly AT THAT TIME was 1860, not the late 1840's AND there was ABSOLUTELY no references to ANY mobs in the sermon.

Who is misrepresenting what in this instance?

BTW, in his sermon, Young misrepresents history claiming smith was incorrectly arrested for treason for all he was doing was preaching the gospel. Funny, it seems that the gospel to Young included burning down newspapers that exposed mormon polygamy and smith to be a false prophet as well as declaring martial law and mustering the Nauvoo army to prepare for war.

No, the statement by Young in 1860 is very clear in regards to how the Prophet defined Christians - we are of the Anti-christ.

[ejonesie22]

Like I said...

[Godzilla]

Failed to get utility clearance too.

[dfwgator]

That looks like my last colonoscopy.

[Godzilla]

That looks like my last colonoscopy.

Ouch (puckering as I type)

[ejonesie22]

Hey, hold the phone!

I think I see a Nephite Sword!!!

We have been wrong all this time!

No, wait, it's just the guys pick..

Never mind...

[Godzilla]

Not the autumn equinox, the fairies stole it away because we didn’t say the right words. Said “plugh” instead of “xyzzy”

[ejonesie22]

You mean they found a dark haired guy with a pick and shovel in your Colon?

May want to have that fixed...

Soon...

[MHGinTN]

Um, this lurker has decided: you are a purposefully deceitful Mormonism Apologist, deceiving readers in your blind allegiance to the cult of Joseph Smith. I will not be reading any more of your deceits. ... Have a nice day. ;^)

[Godzilla]

[ejonesie22]

I hate it when that happens...

Same kind of thing happened when we were looking for the Holy Grail...

[dfwgator]

Hmm, that explains a lot.

[ejonesie22]

At least lay off the Mediterranean food for a while...

Perhaps a nice Scandinavian diet...

[Godzilla]

Special quotes for earth day (off topic)

“The earth is a living creature and breathes as much as you and I do.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Teachings of President Brigham Young, ed. and comp. by Fred C. Collier, v. 3, 1852-1854, 1987, p. 241, also in Essential Brigham Young, p. 82

“Where did the earth come from? From its parent earths.”
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 36

“What! is the earth [alive] too? If it were not, how could the words of our text be fulfilled, where it speaks of the earth’s dying? How can that die that has no life?”
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 281, also The Essential Orson Pratt, 1991, p. 240

[greyfoxx39]

[Reno232]

Well Godzilla, huge apologies are in store. With my hectic schedule I made the stupid mistake of hastily putting forth a response based on a resource I took as being the JOD, but in fact was a compilation of snipets. Bad mistake on my part & I sincerely apologize for erroneously impugning your post.

I have stayed away from these threads largely due a lack of time. I should have done likewise w/ this one. My bad. I haven’t had time to properly research your response, but mine was inappropriate given the circumstances. Our track record led me to respond when I shouldn’t have.

Again sincere apologies. Perhaps we can go at it again some day time permitting. I’m currently putting in 14-16 hour days on two new ventures. Multi tasking is not my strong suit. Best wishes for a great week.

[Godzilla]

Well Godzilla, huge apologies are in store.

Most whole heartedly accepted, best wishes on your new ventures. When you get time, I'll be around :)