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To: Natural Law; metmom; count-your-change; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; HarleyD; ...
The use of Latin by the early Church was intentional and beneficial for the greatest number because it maintained the fidelity of the message and brought the Gospel to the greatest number of peoples by virtue of the fact that Latin was the common language of the Roman Empire. It was spoken throughout the empire by all social levels.

Do you really believe that? Latin was the language of the upper class, unknown to the majority of the world. But for centuries much of the languages people spoke were written down. Old English was written from the 5th century to the mid-12th century.

German is a perfect example. There was no written German language until late in the Church created Hoch Deutsch, or high German.

That is ridiculous. Proto Germanic language was written (albeit crudely) from the 1st century B.C.

And if the church wanted to "maintain the fidelity of the language" it would have transcribed its Bibles in Greek and Hebrew, not Latin.

In fact, translating into English could be fatal. Catholic priest William Tyndale, wanting "every ployboy to know the Scriptures," translated the Bible into everyday English from the original Greek, bypassing the church-sanctioned Latin Vulgate

And he printed his Bibles small so that they would be portable, less expensive and more widely available. For his efforts, the papacy executed him as a heretic in 1536.

That's how much Rome wanted to keep the Bibles out of the hands of ployboys.

Even with my limited knowledge of Spanish I could detect significant differences between the works

And I'll bet you understood more of that Spanish than you do Latin.

I don't even have a clue as to the subtleties of cognate and dialect.

Have more faith in the Holy Spirit's ability to preserve God's word and intent.

1,417 posted on 04/25/2010 11:18:29 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
In fact, translating into English could be fatal. Catholic priest William Tyndale, wanting "every ployboy to know the Scriptures," translated the Bible into everyday English from the original Greek, bypassing the church-sanctioned Latin Vulgate

Going from Greek and Aramaic to Latin and then to English makes the English translations using the Vulgate a translation of a translation, meaning there's even more potential for information and clear meaning to be lost.

It's foolish to take that extra step when the original texts are available to use.

Catholics claim fidelity to the Bible and their church executed someone who adhered to that so that the common man could read it himself.

Nice......

1,420 posted on 04/25/2010 11:25:47 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I learned German in order to read church records pertaining to my Moravian and Dutch Reformed ancestors. These records were from the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, both in the British colonies of Pennsylvania and North Carolina, and earlier in the Palatinate, Pfalz, Alsace, Canton Basel, Wurms and der Schwarzwald. I had no difficulty in reading these records at all, and I was taught Hoch-Deutsch.

It was more of a standardization of dialect than anything else, which coalesced as a result of Martin Luther’s German Bible, much as Tyndale and the subsequent and in many ways derived King James Version coalesced and standardized English.


1,429 posted on 04/25/2010 11:37:11 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That is ridiculous. Proto Germanic language was written (albeit crudely) from the 1st century B.C.

The earliest references to the Old German or High German written language that I can find is the 6th century. Unless you're talking about Old Futhark dialect, which was hardly German. Unless you'd care to clarify?

1,433 posted on 04/25/2010 11:42:00 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Do you really believe that?"

Are you calling me a liar or attempting to read my mind?

I know the reason the language of the Church was Latin as to 99.99% of all biblical and historical scholars. Having studied Latin and German as well as Church history in a "classic education" I know full well that theological constructs lend themselves better to some languages than others. It is the same reason that Chopin and Mozart can't be appreciated when played on a kazoo.

1,456 posted on 04/25/2010 12:02:27 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; 1000 silverlings; Quix
Have more faith in the Holy Spirit's ability to preserve God's word and intent.

Indeed. Spiritual errors in conveying the words of God are impossible because God purposes His own words and preserves them:

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:11

And He prepares us to receive them.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:14-16

In the following passages, Jesus is not speaking of a physical event - whether the recording of language symbols to papyrus or sound waves.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. – Matthew 5:18

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

The words of God are spirit and life. The words of men are neither spirit nor life. Thus we Christians know the difference regardless of media, language or translation:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

It is that very Spiritual communication that makes us His. Notice again that Paul and John go hand-in-glove.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

1,461 posted on 04/25/2010 12:06:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I think this tread has deteriorated to the point where I'm going to stay on the bench.
1,465 posted on 04/25/2010 12:12:33 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That's how much Rome wanted to keep the Bibles out of the hands of ployboys.

Could you please define "ployboy"?

1,472 posted on 04/25/2010 12:20:56 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Have more faith in the Holy Spirit’s ability to preserve God’s word and intent.


INDEED.


1,653 posted on 04/25/2010 4:39:29 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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