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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
Wow, talk about hubris! You tried to read my mind and failed. I never said I rejected John of Patmos or his message. I never even said why I disliked him.
Just as you so quickly distorted my post, his message has been so often and easily distorted and misunderstood.
FYI - An anathema is not “Eternal Damnation”. It is only a disassociation by the Church.
If one can defend St. Paul as a man redeemed, then one can do the same for St. Peter.
“Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?” —and Saul went on to become a great apostle.
St. Peter had not yet eperienced the redemption of the Cross when those words were spoken to him.
And so it is with all of us who have once been “no people, but now are God’s people, ..once had not received mercy but now have received mercy” (!Peter 2:10)
Thank you for your beautiful testimony, dearest sister in Christ!
A distinction without a difference.
Since the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through it and it alone, *dissociating* someone from it is condemning them to hell eternally, since until they agree with eh Catholic Church, cannot get back in and be saved.
What was Mrs Peter doing during this time?
The Catholic Church does not teach that.
No it doesn't.
!Peter 2:10 should be 1Peter 2:10
Of course.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:14-16
As in our previous conversation, I am in agreement with you.
Nobody knows.
Sure it does. I was raised Catholic. I know what it taught and that is the case. The reason Catholics can’t snow people on the Catholic Church position is that too many of us know better.
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2472240/posts?page=330#330
Those who go off to heretics, and all who leave the Church for heresy, abandon the name of Christ. Those who call these men “Christians” are in grievous error, since they neither understand Scripture at all nor the faith which it contains. St Athanasius (”Discourse Against the Arians”, Bk. I, ch.1,no.1, pg 26:11)
In name only is Christ found among certain heretics who want to be called Christians
He who falls away from the doctrine and faith of the Catholic Church would not be, nor would even be called, a Christian. (St. Athanasius)
All true Christians are members of the Church. (St. John Eudes)
Whosoever and whatsoever he might be, he who is not in Christ’s Church is no Christian! (St. Cyprian)
A manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. (St Robert Bellarmine)
Many will come in My name, saying: “I am Christ,” and they will seduce many. Many will say to Me on that day: “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name and cast out devils in Thy name and done many miracles in Thy name?” Then will I profess unto them: Depart from Me, you who work iniquity; I never knew you! St Matthew 24:4-5, 7.21-23
Pope Pius IX, Etsi multa (#25), November 21, 1873: “Therefore the holy martyr Cyprian, writing about schism, denied to the pseudo-bishop Novatian even the title of Christian, on the grounds that he was cut off and separated from the Church of Christ. ‘Whoever he is,’ he says, ‘and whatever sort he is, he is not a Christian who is not in the Church of Christ.’”
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm
Pope Innocent III: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.
Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
Pope Eugene IV: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” From his Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Sure it does. Or were these pope’s lying?
Pope Innocent III: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.
Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
Pope Eugene IV: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” From his Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
I never said that he would or did. But what about the rest of my comment?
God preserved Scripture and used men to do it but that in no way mandates that others recognize Apostolic Tradition in the way that RC’s do nor does it put tradition at the same level of Scripture.
Jesus had a lot to say about the tradition of men, that which men added to Scripture, and none of it was very good. I guess some denominations never learned the lessons from the Scripture they claim they wrote.
Nevertheless, elevating tradition of men to the level of Scripture or beyond, was soundly condemned by Jesus Himself.
Mark 7:1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"
6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Lying implies both knowledge and motive so you cannot hope to reach a conclusion. Most scholars believe that in these reference the Church was synonymous with Christianity. The Catechism says in multiple places that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16). It makes no statement about requiring the Church.
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