| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/28/2010 11:54:24 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Per poster’s request |
Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
Dear Dr. E, don't you think it a tad overweening for a human being to raise himself to the level of Christ's judgment seat? To assume he knows and judges as Christ does?
That one cannot forgive until one has "awareness" that the sinner is truly repentant (as if any of us has access to the internal state of anyone else), and the sinner resolves to go forward and sin no more — jeepers, that sounds pretty pharisaical to me....
Do we need to draw up a contract or anything first?
Jeepers, Jesus Christ is not a lawyer.
He is Love and Truth. And may His Grace be with you, dear sister in Christ!
Again, your honesty is appreciated.
Once again this reminds me of a post made 3 years ago by Albion Girl (who doesn’t post on the forum anymore). Not knowing how to link, I’ll have to be satisfied in offering her quote of 5-14-07, from the thread “Deliver Us From Evil”:
“I always thought it was a mistake for those molested to seek their justice with money. It takes what should be a precious wound, one from which much love and good can spring and turn it into something for sale. It is much better to rely on God to sustain you in each and every way.”
I believe I understand clearly the meaning of Albion Girl’s post.
As for children, Judith Anne; anyone can understand the rage of a parent whose child has been grossly violated. But those of us who can understand can also know that vengeance is the Lord’s and that the old law of an eye for an eye has passed away in the New Covenant.
I am reminded now of St. Maria Goretti. She was a martyr-victim of her assailant; yet history now records that the same one who killed her was present at the ceremonies on the day she was proclaimed a saint. IIRC, not only had he experienced forgiveness, but—now in his old age—had lived a life of repentence and prayer.
Perhaps it is true that Albion Girl understood things welll.
Some things require no comment.
Christ never put that condition on forgiveness. We are not exempt from forgiving if the person never asks for it.
Those who crucified Jesus certainly didn't ask forgiveness for what they did and yet He forgave them anyway. If we are to be Christlike, we need to follow His example.
Just for the record, is the idea that we don't need to forgive if the person doesn't repent at all connected to the Calvinistic teachings of predestination? Do Calvinists teach that we don't need to forgive someone who is predestined to be eternally condemned to hell? IOW, since God isn't forgiving them, we don't need to?
Sez who? He isn't called "wonderful counselor" for nothing!
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
-- 1 John 2:1
***But those of us who can understand can also know that vengeance is the Lord’s and that the old law of an eye for an eye has passed away in the New Covenant.***
Vengeance yes.
But who is the agent of God’s wrath?
Romans 13 3-5 teaches: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
Quite so. He’s an insiders insider and his conclusions cannot be easily discounted by saying , “things are different now”.
Understood. Great thoughts.
But I’m saying it AGAIN. I don’t get parents who demand that their child forgive the molester. I just don’t understand. The parent is in a very tough spot, must support the child, and protect the child.
Now, I understand that we must become like children; and I understand that children can teach us a lot about God’s redeeming Love. But I would never demand from a child that the child face and forgive a sex abuser.
When the child becomes an adult, I expect the child to have dealt with it, with the help of the parents and the law. Forgiveness, then, will have some meaning.
But children must not be told that they have to forgive. That is outrageous.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes, it's worth three billion dollars.
Beisdes irrational, you play the fallacy of the undistributed middle a bit to frequently.
It's especially hard when the other person never repented and is just merrily going on their way, prospering and continuing to commit the same sin as if nothing happened and they're not wrong.
Yes that is the difficult part.
In a situation where we are in constant contact with a person who sinned against us, the point of forgiveness becomes quite clear.
If we keep badgering the person to apologize etc instead of forgiving them, it makes it harder for them to hear God's still quite voice over our "spiritual" nagging.
I have seen in many instances a person going to God with confession of sin when the offended person forgives and gives that person and their sin to God.
It's also a marriage counseling tactic, having each person looking to improve themselves instead of the other.
Works great!
Ping
We are not.
Let’s not get personal.
Go and read your post #1994 ...
My post had to do with the act of personal forgiveness of a wrong done.
This quote from Romans makes reference to lawful authority. I don’t see it as justifying an act of vengeance by one who takes justice into his own hands.
Done in the right way, it is Biblical.
What's outrageous is seeing some who wishes to deny a child the wise teachings of the Biblical principles of forgiveness.
Even very damaged children are quite smart and able to understand those simple truths that can heal them.
With calmness and patience it can be done, and it is not "forcing"
Forgiveness and love play into the conversion of many. Even though it seems as though the person acts as if they don’t think that they did anything wrong, in their heart of hearts, they really know it. Being forgiving can help lead them to Christ.
I caught this on Focus on the Family today from a Muslim who converted to Christianity. He explains the role that being loved by Christians played in his conversion.
From Jihad to Jesus
http://listen.family.org/daily/A000001724.cfm
Ergun Caner is the president of Liberty Theological Seminary at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va. A former Muslim, he converted to Christianity in 1982 and has become a nationally-known Christian apologist, debating scholars and speaking on college campuses across the country. Caner holds three masters degrees and two doctorates and is the author of 14 books, including the Gold Medallion Award-winner, Unveiling Islam.
I agree that you can’t force forgiveness on a child.
Have we all forgotten what it was like to be a child?
You wrote: “When the child becomes an adult, I expect the child to have dealt with it, with the help of parents and the law. Forgiveness, then, will have some meaning.”
I agree.
One thought , however—the child can only “deal with it” if s/he has been able to tell a trusted person about it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.