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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
I'm not saying that Paul is a rejection of the rest of Scriptures. I'm saying that you cannot put a proof together of the Athenasian Creed, for instance, from Paul's works. I'm saying, and have supplied some examples, that Paul's writings support a subordinationalist viewpoint.
I wish that you could prove me wrong. Will you take on that task and compare Pauls subordinationalist verses with his Trinitarian ones? I would be grateful. If you could construct the Athenasian Creed's definition of the Trinity, that would be even better.
Fully and completely Trinitarian and Triune. My point is that Paul's writings are not. The Church at Nicea defined it; not Paul. If you can show otherwise, please do so.
“They ask her to pray for them at the hour of their death, although, what exactly they are hoping to accomplish is not clear.”
Really? Unclear? We ask Mary, the Mother of God, to pray for us so that we may be made worthy of Heaven. Now that you know, does that bother you?
See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2500255/posts?page=1
The prayer you seem to object to is one of the most ancient, common Christian prayers, it is NOT just the Catholic community that prays for the intercession of the Mother of God, it is the vast majority of ALL of Christendom, the Universal Church and most of the separated brethren.
I find it cause for wonderment that they’re trashing one of the Apostles, a Saint in their own church.
I’ve always enjoyed reading the words of Paul. His experience of God expresses the joy and beauty and wonder of it all better than most any other.
Shame on those who denigrate Paul. Peter didn’t explicitly espouse a verbatim “trinitarian formula” either, but no one doubts him or casts aspersions in his direction.
Because she fails to understand the concept of the Trinity. She doesn't appear understand the concept of "one in being with the Father" and can't seem to comprehend a non-anthromorphic relationship between Mary, Jesus and God the Father.
Further, members of her sect reject the filial relationship commanded by Christ that Catholics have with Mary.
She is a member of the Universal Contrarians. Their dogma is to advocate the opposite position of the Catholic Church in all matters.
Maybe. I wonder why “Dr.” Eckleburg cannot speak for herself in this matter?
Not aspersions. You are correct. Peter did not either.
However, there are no Catholics who try to build a religion out of just the writings of Peter.
Thats just a ploy!
RegulatorCountry wrote:
I find it cause for wonderment that they’re trashing one of the Apostles, a Saint in their own church.
Really? I do not, since nothing written by MarkBsnr “trashes” anyone, certainly not one of the Apostles.
BTW, a note about common courtesy, if you trash a FReeper in a post, ping them. Better yet, don’t misrepresent a scholarly discussion as “trashing”. Verb sap?
I had a cat destined for an inner circle of hell once. Heaven? Not that cat!
To my understanding, Catholics built a religion on a misunderstanding of "the rock" meaning Peter instead of Jesus Christ, and so this statement appears to be somewhat of a misstatement. Perhaps you meant to say not "just the writings" but the writings as well as the person himself.
Oh, Bull!. You made a statement out of the ether that the concept of the separation of Church and state was an invention of Calvin. I thoroughly disproved that and proved that the concept existed at least two thousand years before Calvin's birth. Now you are just trying to revise the history of the discussion like you tried to distort the history of the concept.
There is a huge difference between repentance and penance.
Repenting is turning from sin.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penance
Penance is
1 : an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin
2 : a sacramental rite that is practiced in Roman, Eastern, and some Anglican churches and that consists of private confession, absolution, and a penance directed by the confessor
3 : something (as a hardship or penalty) resembling an act of penance (as in compensating for an offense)
The sense in which it is practiced is that it is something done to earn forgiveness for the sins that were confessed in the confessional. Confession isn’t considered complete without doing the penance the priest directs you to do.
Essentially, penance makes Catholicism a works religion. One has to work to earn forgiveness to be allowed to take communion or enter into heaven. If you sin before you get to confession again, too bad for you. Untold years of agony in purgatory at least, if you’re lucky and enough people remember to pay for masses and light candles for your soul after you died. If not enough are done, you may never get out.
At worst, hell for eternity because even as a Catholic, you didn’t make the grade. Catholics are never be sure of their salvation, but always hope for it, hence their continual devotion to rites, sacraments, and other acts of what they consider righteousness. In spite of that, they insist that theirs is the only true church, and you must belong to it in order to avoid hell for eternity, which it can’t even guarantee them of that anyway.
God is perceived as all too ready and willing to condemn in imperfect sinner for not being perfect and Jesus is portrayed as a harsh Judge, also more than ready to condemn. Only Mary is considered compassionate enough to appeal to.
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=321
Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; I hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope. Help me for the love of Jesus Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of hell I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God.
Thank you for reminding me of the courtesty ping. “They” have been pinged.
Muchly obliged, sir. There is much trash littering the RF, however. One must often wear a gas mask and hip waders, I'm afraid...
Cats. The other white meat. 1 billion Chinese can't be wrong. :)
It is only permissible to change the Catechism and Scripture to fit your hatred. We must not touch the posts of those doing it.
Ah, but that understanding of Catholicism would be incomplete. There are hundreds of verses, and you may or may not have come across them, but one of the most compelling ones is the passage of the keys. In the tradition of the kings of the OT and the later Middle East and Europeans, the steward was the one who was entrusted with the keys when the king went on an extended journey. The steward was left in temporary charge of the kingdom and was supposed to ensure that the kingdom was looked after and flourishing when the king returned.
I think that my original post was probably more accurate, although I neglected to extend that thought to something like 'the writings of Paul, supplemented by the OT'. I have been informed by several of the Reformed that the Gospels are the chronicles of Christ, while Paul is the theology and what we should do and believe. In essence, saying that the Gospels are nice, but Paul is necessary.
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