Nifonging the Catholic Church

me ^ | April 18, 2010 | vanity

[Judith Anne]

I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.

Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.

I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!

Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!

Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!

What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?

Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?

Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!

[MarkBsnr]

Okay, let us see what Trinitarian verses there are in this passage.

At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Good verses and true. Trinitarian? No.

That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. Trinitarian? No.

The Christ here is a super David, a hero of men.

[MarkBsnr]

Very good.

Martin Luther thought with his belly - he was the Reformer of the luxury, the wealth, the privilege and the good times. Calvin was addicted to power and Zwingli was just mad.

[Lorica]

bookmark

[MarkBsnr]

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." -- 1 Corinthians 12:3-6

This is not explicitly Trinitarian. Differences of administrations? Read the entire chapter with a truer version of Scripture and you will see that the Spirit of God is power sent by God, and not God himself.

"looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" -- Titus 2:13

Putting this into context with all the Pauline verses that indicate that Jesus was sent by God, this is not Trinitarian either.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -- Ephesians 4:4-6

It does not say, neither does it say anywhere else, that Paul considered the Spirit to be a person of the Trinitarian God; and he also preached subordinationalist Jesus throughout his epistles.

[count-your-change]

You’re supposed to “imagine”!

[Religion Moderator]

Technically, the following edit does not violate an RF guideline:

After these years spent on the FR RF and reading all the different points of view, it becomes more clear than ever that the Reformation was a Scriptural restatement purposeful misdirection by unscrupulous and greedy men of the direct and personal purpose, work and truth of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's flock.

However, it can be misread because the replacement phrase is long and many posters would not look at the original post to see the difference.

This would have been clear, leaving the italics to what Dr. Eckleburg actually said:

After these years spent on the FR RF and reading all the different points of view, it becomes more clear than ever that the Reformation was a Scriptural restatement purposeful misdirection by unscrupulous and greedy men of the direct and personal purpose, work and truth of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ’s flock.

[Judith Anne]

Thank you for your moderation.

Is that now a new rule?

[Religion Moderator]

Being scrupulously accurate in quoting each other need not be a rule when posters are trying their best to not “make it personal.” I do expect posters skilled with HTML, the English language and debate to set an example for the ones who are not ‘there’ yet.

[Quix]

EXCELLENT.

THX THX.

[Quix]

UNMITIGATED BALDERDASH.

Authentic Christians of every label are part of Christ’s Body, HIS Church Universal. Thankfully, there will likely be SOME Roman Catholics et al in that number.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Quix]

Incredible.

[Quix]

Sounds pretty reasonable, to me.

Thanks for your labors of . . . duty, if not love? hereon! LOL.

Some day, you might do well to write at least a novel or some such about herding cats.

[Alamo-Girl]

Whenever people ask me for Scriptures which underscore the doctrine of the Trinity, Paul is at the top of my list:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

God's Name is I AM.

[the_conscience]

Good grief indeed! I'm glad I don't live around a large population of Romanists because they've completely lost their minds defending their god, the Pope.

No doubt reading Paul must be a painful experience for them.

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

THX.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!

[Quix]

LOL.

I don’t know if the percentage of congregants a delusion is sent to is larger in the Vatican groups than the Protty groups but it plausibly is, given the seemingly outrageous degree of willful idolatry and blasphemy inherent in THE SYSTEM.

[Alamo-Girl]

It occurs to me there is one other point I should I have made in my post at 1374:

Man is not the measure of God.

Frequently and oftentimes inadvertently, man anthropomorphizes God by superimposing his own mental limitations onto his spiritual understanding of Who God IS.

For example, God is the Creator of space and time. Space and time are not limitations or properties of the Creator of them.

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

Likewise, logic is part of God’s Creation. The Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) and the Law of Identity (A is A and not B) do not apply to the Creator of them.

And concerning the doctrine of the Trinity, these very anthropomorphisms result in objections to or outright denial of certain Scripture or God Himself.

Christ makes the point here:

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matt 22:42

Who God IS cannot be discerned by the natural man:

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

As another example, the concept of “sent” is captured beautifully in the description of Christ in Hebrews 1:3 where He is described as the brightness of the Father’s glory.

Thus again, the writings of Paul and of John go hand-in-glove.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

God’s Name is I AM.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

[Quix]

I strongly agree.

And, one might think that even very bright atheists would also arrive at that conclusion as a matter of course.

Alas, they do not . . . which is evidence, perhaps, of willful blindness . . . and of delusion sent because of the willful blindness. I think such horrors become an endless loop at some point.

Thanks for the ping.