What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

Mormon Times ^ | March 5, 2010 | By McKay Coppins

[greyfoxx39]

What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'?

 

I have often heard the criticism that Latter-day Saints classify everyone who disagrees with our beliefs as "anti-Mormon." Of course, the people who say this are usually anti-Mormons. Am I proving their point? I don't think so.

I actually agree that this is a problem in our church. After all, our belief system, if firmly embraced, demands a lot of personal sacrifice, and we often become hyper-defensive when we sense a threat to our faith.

Unfortunately, this often leads to irrational name-calling and blindly neglecting to differentiate between non-Mormons and anti-Mormons.

Of course, that's not to say anti-Mormons don't exist, or that it's unimportant to identify them. We just need to properly define the term.

First of all, we shouldn't call people who simply don't believe in Mormonism "anti-Mormons." We should call them Catholics or Baptists or Muslims or atheists. People who ascribe themselves to faiths or philosophies that contradict Mormonism should not automatically be seen as antagonists. They should be credited with having their own beliefs.

Now, what about people who try to convert Latter-day Saints to their belief systems? Are they anti-Mormons?

No.

The believing Baptist who testifies of his church's doctrine to a Latter-day Saint is trying to do something he believes is constructive. Even if he attempts to point out supposed flaws in Mormon doctrine, if his genuine intent is to save a soul and he maintains a polite, rational tone, I don't think he deserves the anti-Mormon label. After all, should Mormon missionaries be considered anti-Catholics or anti-Protestants?

The line, I believe, that separates non-Mormons from anti-Mormons is motivation. Anti-Mormons are people who put down Mormon beliefs, practices and people simply for the sake of destroying their faith. Not many anti-Mormons would admit that is their primary goal, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

For the most part, anti-Mormons should be ignored. But before that can happen, they have to be identified

[dangus]

... actually, I just looked this up in Wikipedia... Franconia is part of the modern German state, but it was only lumped in with Bavaria by Napoleon, in exchange for much of Bavaria being ceded to Austria (which helps me makes sense of why my Austrian relatives had always taught me that Austria was part of Bavaria, despite the Austro-Hungarian empire obviously being a separate entity).

[greyfoxx39]

Actually, “anti-” means “replacing.” “Counter-” is the proper prefix for being opposed to something.

Well gosh..now we will expect to be called "counter-mormons"...when in fact, we would replace mormonism with real Christianity.

[greyfoxx39]

The apostles never said, “here, read this until you’re all warm and fuzzy”

LOL

[Godzilla]

to both posts

Yes, Catholicism is very present in Bavaria - stationed in Augsberg for 5 years. It is also no wonder they had so many wars - no body knew who they belonged to from one day to the next lol.

[reaganaut]

While I have a lot of personal respect for the Mormons whom I know, one personal characteristic is always lacking in Mormons that I see in all true Christians: joy. It should be no mystery as to why. As Christians we have full assurance that Jesus Christ has paid for all our sins and we can look forward to the judgment without fear (1 John 4:17-19). Our salvation was secured through the work of Jesus Christ. Mormons, on the other hand, are never sure if they have done enough to win God’s favor.

- - - - - -
Worth a repost. You’ve got it exactly! The LDS will often say they are ‘happy’ or ‘happy in their religion’, but I can’t say I have ever heard (nor did I ever say when I was LDS) them say they have Joy.

And to them, a Christian saying they have assurance they are saved is the ultimate in arrogance whereas Christians see that the idea we can ‘do our part’ in our salvation through works is the ultimate in arrogance.

[reaganaut]

All good questions. I expect crickets however or a ‘we don’t speculate on that’.

[reaganaut]

Each and everyone said it was because of the social programs, frindly people, dances and other programs at the church.

NOT ONE said it was because they were lost and needed Christ.

The name of Jesus never came up during the testimonies.

- - - - - - -
I believe it. Funny thing for me is, even though I joined as a teenager, I never went to any of the social things at all. For me that wasn’t the reason I joined.

I joined because I was looking for a conservative ‘religion’.

[T. P. Pole]

Will you be seen at Easter Sunday sunrise services, glorying in the resurrection of Our Lord

Reaganaut is mostly accurate on our Easter services. It is not a tradition for Mormons to have an Easter sunrise service, although I have been in a few stakes with them and have attended several.

These day (since the consolidated meeting schedule that started in the '80s, I think) there are few meetings or services outside of the standard schedule. But it would be a very poor ward that did not have the resurrection as the topic on that day.

And yes, we do sing Easter hymns. "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" is my favorite.

When Easter falls on the first Sunday in April, it alligns with General Conference. We have 10 hours (!!!) of services generally originating from church headquarters in Salt Lake. I am extremely confident that Christ and His resurrection will be the topic for a significant number of the talks/sermons.

Your question raises an interesting question to me. Is one of the qualifications to being a "true" Christian the attendance at an Easter sunrise service?

[T. P. Pole]

"Many that do not respond will be left with a false understanding of how mormons celebrate Easter."

There are differing levels of mis-representation. Distortion and implication are one thing. Flat out lying is another.

For example, here are some quotes from the hymns thread last month.

greyfoxx39 in post 4: So, when you hear the beautiful sounds put forth by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir listen, listen to the words. You just think these are the hymns you know from old...but they are carrying the message that the mormon church is NOT the church of Christ, and specifically not the church of the Cross.

In the same post you quoted the "Familiar version of Hark the Herald Angels Sing."

This is an example of of distortion and implication. You were implying that we change the words to a non-Christian version. Nope, we do not, and I corrected this mis-representation.

I responded in post 21 with the words to the "Mormon" version and commented - OH MY HECK!!!!! We changed "With angelic" to "With th’angelic." And "Risen" to "Ris’n." We must not be Christians because of that, and that alone.

As for a flat out lie, the original post contains this gem from, also, greyfoxx39 (in post 1): Note, mentions of the Cross are deleted from the mormon versions.

In post 19 I corrected this lie by posting several hymns where "cross" was not deleted. And I give you significant recognition for acknowledging such in post 23 where you say Well, I'll be...thanks for correcting me. I didn't have time to go through ALL the hymns, and am glad to see that you haven't done away with the Cross in some.

If I were thin skinned or paranoid I would think that the phrasing "in some" implies that we have "done away with" it in most, but I really didn't think that way at the time, and only notice it now to comment on the level of mis-representation.

And, by the way, I appreciate the level of discourse with you on that thread.

This compares the the flat out fictional creation of reaganaut as quoted in post 114 of this thread (which is being quoted from an earlier thread). I knew it was a joke at the time, but it was not presented as a joke. It was presented in the original thread with only the comment So the 300,000 could have just been mormons obeying their bishops ???.

There were eight replies to that post that treated it as if it were truth. I saw a few of these, and stepped in to point out that the letter was a fake. To which I was ridiculed. I feel that reaganaut and I have significantly improved our level of discussion since then, and I generally respect his postings. But it is the type of thing that shows up in later threads as proof that mormons aren't Christians.

What I see mostly on these threads is implication or distortion. There are few flat out lies, and most are corrected by folks like reaganaut (thank you for doing that).

When I have time, which is seldom, I will try to correct the flat out lies. But I just don't have the time to respond to all. The reason I do this is for the reason you stated - for those that are readers but not regular posters. The regular posters, for the most part, are not here for genuine enlightenment. They are here for the battle. But for the bystanders this may be their only exposure to mormonism. And while I don't mind them seeing the discussion, I don't want them to only see lies.

[T. P. Pole]

Regarding my response to reaganaut with an example where he spread mistruths - I trust that most readers of these threads can see that your style of debate is ridiculous. Straw man, straw man, who can see the straw man? When you ask a question, and get an answer, you then move the goalposts and pretend that you never asked the first question or that you never received an answer to it. I only know of two groups of people that regularly debate this way - third graders and democrats.

Let it be known that I will gladly discuss mormonism with anyone in a respectful, mature manner. But I will usually ignore the third graders and democrats (and spammers).

[T. P. Pole]

I’ve never said the LDS don’t sing Christian hymns.

I'm am sorry if my post suggested that. That was not my intention. I was just pointing out universal examples of recent mis-truths, but was not trying to suggest that you were the author of examples presented.

For the record, I am unaware of any examples where you said such a thing.

The reverence for Joseph Smith really is close to worship

Alas, sigh. That bugs me too. The line between "revere" and "worship" gets straddled way too often. I suspect that many Catholics feel the same way about the treatment of Mary.

Oh, and sorry for not pinging you on that other post. As I said there, I do appreciate your sense of fairness in discussions. Like you said, there is more than enough to debate about with making things up. And I have often seen you correct others when something very wrong is stated. Thanks.

As for how I have been, things are nuts at work. We have laid-off to beyond sustainable levels, and those of us that are left all have three or four jobs to do. Fortunately, I was able to get one of those jobs reassigned back to the team that should have been doing it all along, so I have gone from 60+ hours every-other week to a steady 45-50 hours every week. I consider that significant progress.

And you?

[reaganaut]

I was a member in the 1980’s and 1990’s after the consolidation and I NEVER heard of a sunrise service in any of the wards/stakes I was a member of or attended.

And I have been to ward where the resurrection was never mentioned on Easter. I am not saying that is true of ALL wards but it did happen.

And I think grey’s question is that only ‘true’ Christians get up before dawn on Easter, it was merely pointing out that for Christians, we recognize that Easter is a remembrance of a very special day and that we celebrate it in part by a special service full of symbolism and joy.

Easter is not just ‘another Sunday’ for Christians and in my experience it was just ‘another Sunday’ for the LDS far more often than not.

I am sure you have been to testimony meetings where Jesus is only mentioned at the end or in passing.

That disturbs Christians like me whose entire testimony is of Jesus, not a church, not a prophet, not temples, not books. It is all about Jesus and what He did on the Cross.

[greyfoxx39]

I am extremely confident that Christ and His resurrection will be the topic for a significant number of the talks/sermons.

I want to know how many talks will reference the Cross, and how many of these talks will be totally dedicated to the Resurrection.

I shall investigate these subjects when the info becomes available on LDS.org.

In following a mormon discussion on Myspace regarding "What will you be doing Easter Sunday", there were a number of posts, basically none of which referenced Jesus. A lot of them spoke of "sitting on the couch watching conference with my family."

That was what prompted my question. I remember when I was mormon, Easter Sunday was significant for the acquisition of new clothes or for attending conference, not for remembering the Resurrection.

I am so grateful that I left mormonism and found churches in which I can attend Good Friday services, Easter sunrise services, Palm Sunday services, and perhaps the most wonderful of all, Christmas Eve services. Never before in my mormon days did the living, breathing Christ become as real to me.

THIS seems to be the "special" way that mormons see Easter:

Mesa Arizona Easter Pageant now largest of its kind

"It's the Webbs, their six children and now their 16 grandchildren who all come together several days before Easter to create what has been called the "miracle of the chairs." Each year for the past 25, Loran, a member of the Mesa Arizona 25th Ward in the Maricopa Arizona North Stake, has overseen the massive delivery and pickup effort of some 10,000 folding chairs. First, he sends out letters inviting "about 40 stakes to each bring 300 chairs," he says, then follows up with an intense phone campaign to ensure all the chairs will be delivered as planned at the designated time and date.

-SNIP-

"There's no greater service that we can do every year than to make it possible for the nearly 100,000 visitors to see the pageant," she says.

-SNIP-

"Our hope is that everyone who attends will feel the spirit of it," says Evans. "The pageant enables people to have a witness of Christ, and for those who are not members to walk away with a favorable impression of the church."

[Godzilla]

Then most clearly you cannot establish by post deliberate twisting and lying about mormon doctrine.

[reaganaut]

The reverence for Joseph Smith really is close to worship

Alas, sigh. That bugs me too. The line between “revere” and “worship” gets straddled way too often. I suspect that many Catholics feel the same way about the treatment of Mary.

- - - - - - - - - -
Possibly. When I was LDS, my knee jerk reaction was “we don’t worship Joseph Smith!”, but as I grow in Christ I see that far too many LDS DO worship Smith and put him above everyone else, even if they don’t realize it.

Back to testimony meetings. How many times have you heard “I know Joseph Smith was a prophet”, or “I am grateful for Joseph Smith” before “I love ‘the Savior’” (always impersonal) or “I know Jesus is the Christ” (what DOES that mean exactly? I could never get a simple definition). And many times testimonies only have the name of Christ at the end (isaythisinthenameofjesuschristamen).

I don’t think they necessarily realize it but they often do put Smith above Jesus.

And I am glad that bugs you as well. Christ should be the FIRST and ONLY part of our testimony.

I am doing some research into the “Jesus Movement” of the hippie generation and their music. One of the songs I was listening to last night is a very simple chorus.

“Let all the applause in this place be to Jesus, let all the Praise go to Him”. And that is what our testimonies should be and how we should treat Christ. God/Christ is the ONLY one we should sing praise to.

Contrast that with “Praise to the man” during conference this year. Do you think that is a song God wants to hear, singing a hymn about Joseph Smith?

The LDS often complain about Christians who applaud in church, but it makes sense if you realize that it is not to the ‘performer’ or pastor, but it is applause to God. It is a form of Praise. It took me a long time to see that, I admit.

Good to hear things are calming down at work. I understand. Did you ever finish that book I recommended? I was wondering about your take on it.

Things are busy but otherwise fine here and btw, I am a ‘she’, not a ‘he’. ;)

[Tennessee Nana]

And yes, we do sing Easter hymns. “Christ the Lord is Risen Today” is my favorite.
______________________________________________

Tadpole, would you mind posting the words that you sing in yoiur mormon services for this Christian Hymn ???

its a longtime favorite of mine

I first sang it as a child 50 years ago...

[reaganaut]

I pulled out my LDS hymnal (#200) and there are very few lyric changes (they remove boasting from verse 3) and my hymnal only has the first 3 verses, not the last 3.

It also doesn’t focus on the Cross. And the verse that mentions the Cross (verse 4) is not listed in the LDS hymnal. There may be a hymnal that mentions the Cross, but I could not find it when I looked.

This set of lyrics is from: http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh302.sht

1. Christ the Lord is risen today, Alleluia!
Earth and heaven in chorus say, Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high, Alleluia!
Sing, ye heavens, and earth reply, Alleluia!

2. Love’s redeeming work is done, Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!
Death in vain forbids him rise, Alleluia!
Christ has opened paradise, Alleluia!

3. Lives again our glorious King, Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting? Alleluia!
Once he died our souls to save, Alleluia!
Where’s thy victory, boasting grave? Alleluia!

4. Soar we now where Christ has led, Alleluia!
Following our exalted Head, Alleluia!
Made like him, like him we rise, Alleluia!
Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!

5. Hail the Lord of earth and heaven, Alleluia!
Praise to thee by both be given, Alleluia!
Thee we greet triumphant now, Alleluia!
Hail the Resurrection, thou, Alleluia!

6. King of glory, soul of bliss, Alleluia!
Everlasting life is this, Alleluia!
Thee to know, thy power to prove, Alleluia!
Thus to sing, and thus to love, Alleluia!

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

for a start the mormons have tossed out the end of the 2nd verse and the start of the 3rd...

plus some other vital parts...

Heres the original that i have always sung...

Christ, the Lord, is risen today, Alleluia!
Sons of men and angels say, Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high, Alleluia!
Sing, ye heavens, and earth, reply, Alleluia!

Love’s redeeming work is done, Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!
Lo! the Sun’s eclipse is over, Alleluia!
Lo! He sets in blood no more, Alleluia!

Vain the stone, the watch, the seal, Alleluia!
Christ hath burst the gates of hell, Alleluia!
Death in vain forbids His rise, Alleluia!
Christ hath opened paradise, Alleluia!

Lives again our glorious King, Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting? Alleluia!
Once He died our souls to save, Alleluia!
Where thy victory, O grave? Alleluia!

Soar we now where Christ hath led, Alleluia!
Following our exalted Head, Alleluia!
Made like Him, like Him we rise, Alleluia!
Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!

Hail, the Lord of earth and Heaven, Alleluia!
Praise to Thee by both be given, Alleluia!
Thee we greet triumphant now, Alleluia!
Hail, the resurrection, thou, Alleluia!

King of glory, Soul of bliss, Alleluia!
Everlasting life is this, Alleluia!
Thee to know, Thy power to prove, Alleluia!
Thus to sing and thus to love, Alleluia!

Hymns of praise then let us sing, Alleluia!
Unto Christ, our heavenly King, Alleluia!
Who endured the cross and grave, Alleluia!
Sinners to redeem and save. Alleluia!

But the pains that He endured, Alleluia!
Our salvation have procured, Alleluia!
Now above the sky He’s King, Alleluia!
Where the angels ever sing. Alleluia!

Jesus Christ is risen today, Alleluia!
Our triumphant holy day, Alleluia!
Who did once upon the cross, Alleluia!
Suffer to redeem our loss. Alleluia!

Words: Charles Wes­ley, 1739. Stanzas 8-10, au­thor un­known, 14th Cen­tu­ry; trans­lat­ed from La­tin to Eng­lish in Lyra Da­vid­i­ca. This ex­ub­er­ant song is one of the most pop­u­lar East­er hymns in the Eng­lish lang­uage.

Music: Easter Hymn, com­pos­er un­known, in Lyra Da­vid­i­ca (Lon­don: 1708) (MI­DI, score).

Wesley’s words were writ­ten for use at the first wor­ship ser­vice at the Wes­ley­an Chap­el in Lon­don. The cha­pel, on the site of a for­mer iron found­ry, be­came known as the Found­ry Meet­ing House, and this hymn was in­clud­ed in the Found­ry Col­lect­ion

[reaganaut]

Your posting makes the changes all that more dramatic and disturbing.

I like the full version you posted.

[T. P. Pole]

200
Christ the Lord Is Risen Today

1. Christ the Lord is ris’n today,
Alleluia!
Sons of men and angels say,
Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high,
Alleluia!
Sing, ye heav’ns, and earth reply,
Alleluia!

2. Love’s redeeming work is done,
Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the vict’ry won,
Alleluia!
Jesus’ agony is o’er,
Alleluia!
Darkness veils the earth no more,
Alleluia!

3. Lives again our glorious King,
Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting?
Alleluia!
Once he died our souls to save,
Alleluia!
Where thy victory, O grave?
Alleluia!

It is a rare hymn that goes more than 4 verses in our hymnals. Most have 3 or 4. #85 - How Firm a Foundation goes 7. There may be 10 out of 340 that go over 4.

I grabbed our old hymnal. The current version we use was originally printed in 1985. The previous hymnal was first published in 1948. The hymnals are used church-wide, at least for English speaking.

The hymn is the same in the old one (#10 there). 3 verses, same words. How firm a foundation is also 7 verses there. There is a version of Who's On the Lord's Side that goes 6 verses, all in the music staff (Foundation only has 3, then prints the others to the side).

Our hymns are online at http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/.