What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'? - Anti-Mormon Caucus (Just Kidding)

Mormon Times ^ | March 5, 2010 | By McKay Coppins

[greyfoxx39]

What is the definition of 'anti-Mormon'?

 

I have often heard the criticism that Latter-day Saints classify everyone who disagrees with our beliefs as "anti-Mormon." Of course, the people who say this are usually anti-Mormons. Am I proving their point? I don't think so.

I actually agree that this is a problem in our church. After all, our belief system, if firmly embraced, demands a lot of personal sacrifice, and we often become hyper-defensive when we sense a threat to our faith.

Unfortunately, this often leads to irrational name-calling and blindly neglecting to differentiate between non-Mormons and anti-Mormons.

Of course, that's not to say anti-Mormons don't exist, or that it's unimportant to identify them. We just need to properly define the term.

First of all, we shouldn't call people who simply don't believe in Mormonism "anti-Mormons." We should call them Catholics or Baptists or Muslims or atheists. People who ascribe themselves to faiths or philosophies that contradict Mormonism should not automatically be seen as antagonists. They should be credited with having their own beliefs.

Now, what about people who try to convert Latter-day Saints to their belief systems? Are they anti-Mormons?

No.

The believing Baptist who testifies of his church's doctrine to a Latter-day Saint is trying to do something he believes is constructive. Even if he attempts to point out supposed flaws in Mormon doctrine, if his genuine intent is to save a soul and he maintains a polite, rational tone, I don't think he deserves the anti-Mormon label. After all, should Mormon missionaries be considered anti-Catholics or anti-Protestants?

The line, I believe, that separates non-Mormons from anti-Mormons is motivation. Anti-Mormons are people who put down Mormon beliefs, practices and people simply for the sake of destroying their faith. Not many anti-Mormons would admit that is their primary goal, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

For the most part, anti-Mormons should be ignored. But before that can happen, they have to be identified

[reaganaut]

Before you accuse me of something; better verify if your accusation is accurate. That is the honest and, btw, “Christian” thing to do.

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And that is what most of us (and definitely I) do.

I either have stated personal experiences or verifiable quotes and links.

Sadly, I know Mormon history/doctrine better than most LDS.

[Godzilla]

The line, I believe, that separates non-Mormons from anti-Mormons is motivation. Anti-Mormons are people who put down Mormon beliefs, practices and people simply for the sake of destroying their faith. Not many anti-Mormons would admit that is their primary goal, of course, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.

Sooooo when the missionaries come to the door and start declaring that all churches except lds are apostate - that is not tearing down or attempting to destroy the faith?

[Godzilla]

. . . political forum,. . .

Hey Grunth - welcome to the RELIGION Forum

[Edward Watson]

First of all, I apologize for denigrating you a few weeks ago. I shouldn’t have behaved so inappropriately.

Secondly, I’ll answer all your questions HONESTLY. Can I expect you to be similarly honest and accept them as accurate depictions of genuine LDS beliefs? In other words, accept the fact that my answers and brief elaborations are accurate. I don’t expect you to convert, and neither do you expect to be convinced that my church is the true church. We both get happy.

1. Mormons do NOT believe in the traditional description of the Trinity. We believe in the biblical Triad or threeness of the Godhead. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. These three separate and distinct entities are God by nature and share a oneness in a manner that cannot be imagined. We do not believe God is nonmaterial, is Mind, is three hypostates in one ousia (whatever that is). We believe God is a spirit being who dwells in an immortal material body just as we are spirit beings dwelling in mortal bodies.

2. Mormons believe Jesus is God. The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants explicitly and repeatedly state Jesus is God incarnate, who was the Old Testament YHWH God of the Hebrews, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is the Eternal God.

3. Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death. We believe his Atonement, that mindless, terrifying substitution sacrifice STARTED in the Garden of Gethsemane. The agony he went through was so intense that he, despite being God, was so great he bled blood. His nature of being God and his nature of being sinless, allowed him to become our substitute. One sinless God is a fair substitute for an infinite number of sinful men. He, despite being the greatest of all, allowed himself the indignity of dying a slave’s death on the cross. He rose from the dead three days later, triumphing over death and now sits at the Father’s right hand.

4. Mormons believe all humans are spirit OFFSPRING (genos) of God. The Bible describes us as his “genus” with Jesus as the firstborn (prototokos). Our physical bodies are his creation while our spirits (who we actually are) are his spirit offspring. This is why God made the unimaginable sacrifice of subjecting his only begotten Son Jesus Christ to the unimaginable torture of the Atonement. No sane entity, God or man, will subject their child to unimaginable torture for the sake of toys or mere creations. Christ’s sacrifice shows we’re much more important in God’s eyes than a mere creation.

BECAUSE we’re God’s spirit offspring, we are given the opportunity to become like him. While we are not “God” by nature - only the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are God by nature; we become God or gods by Grace. How? Because Jesus Christ “bridged” the two separate natures. He was fully, 100% God and he was fully, 100% man. He was “God” from his Father and “Man” from his mother. Because of Christ’s incarnation as a human or member of the “Homo Sapiens” species; he shares whatever he has with his true followers. He is the Head while we are the Body. He is the Groom while we are the Bride. These descriptions denote a unity far beyond what one would expect between God and some of his creatures.

We believe the Bible isn’t lying when it repeatedly describes the true followers are sharing Christ’s oneness or becoming like him. The early Church Fathers described this concept as THEOSIS no less than 150 times.

Instead of just enjoying “eternal bliss;” his true followers become the “bene ha elohim,” the Sons and Daughters of God, enjoying eternal increase and eventually evolving to a point of becoming deified into the oneness of the Godhead.

5. What’s the obsession with sex? Mormons believe men and women are equal. In fact, we believe women are naturally more righteous than men. This is why the Priesthood is given only to men since we need it in order to approach the spiritual level of women.

6. Again with the sex. We believe God the Father is the literal father of the physical body of Jesus. We do NOT believe Mary had sex with God. All we are referring to is Jesus Christ’s PATERNITY. Where then did half his chromosomes come from? Where did his ability to reanimate after cellular decay originate? Or walk on water or heal the sick just by touching? He obviously wasn’t a clone since he possessed a different gender than Mary.

7. Since we believe we’re all God’s spirit offspring with Christ as the Firstborn (prototokos); we believe Satan and the demons are also our siblings who rebelled against God’s plan and were cast out. Jesus and Satan are spirit siblings with each other and with us. We’re all one family. This is why Satan could demand God give him his power. God cast him out instead of merely pointing out to him that it wasn’t possible since he was only a creation.

Furthermore, if Satan was only a creation of God; that then opens up the philosophical problem of theodical culpability - God then is responsible for all the evil Satan causes since he created him, and as an all-powerful being who knows the future; he then becomes responsible for Satan’s actions since he has perfect foresight.

8. Mormons do NOT teach the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon.” We believe the distortions of the scriptures occured shortly after their creation. In the case of the New Testament, during the first and early second century. In the case of the Old Testament; much earlier as evidenced by the conflicting versions of biblical vorlages (e.g., Samaritan Pentatech, DSS Jeremiah, LXX, etc.).

9. Well, since polygamy is the natural condition of humanity and only recently has fallen out of favor due to the triumph of monogamy since the 17th century; I find the entire issue quite silly. God explicitly approves of polygamy no less than six times in the Bible.

also, again with the sex obsession ...

10. Jesus said we must be born of water and of the spirit. Otherwise we cannot enter into God’s kingdom. We believe him thus believe in the practice of baptism.

11. Your opinion and irrelevant.

12. Belief in the pre-existence is the ONLY was to resolve one of the greatest problems facing Christian philosophy today: how to solve the problem of undeserved suffering if God is all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful. If you believe that you were an adult spirit offspring of God who was given a choice to experience undeserved suffering in exchange for a greater good; God then maintains his omnibenevolent and omnipotent natures.

13. I believe it. I can’t prove it but neither can you disprove it since we both weren’t there.

14. It is hard to claim with a straight face that a religion that teaches Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, who was born of the virgin Mary, who died on the cross for our sins, who was resurrected after three days and is the only way to heaven could be anything but a Christian faith.

There! I’ve taken the time to answer all your questions. Can I expect a similar honest effort?

[Godzilla]

Mormons have called Christianity pagan for a long time, yet when caught red handed saying the same in GP - the twisting and turning begins in overdrive. Only the contortions of those lds apologists who revert to misrepresentations on this are the ones lying.

[reaganaut]

Um... he and his party were attacked by a mob. I suppose he was trying to protect himself and his friends. If a gang started shooting at you and you had a gun, would you shoot back?

No. Do you equate Stephen’s death, or Peter, or any other person who stood up for their beliefs and ended up dead because of it with Jesus’? Many people in history have lost their lives because they wouldn’t give up their beliefs. JS is one of them. But it doesn’t make any of them the Savior.

- - - - - - - -
Ummm....BIG difference here. Martyrs BY DEFINITION do not defend themselves.

Stephen, Paul, and the others who gave their life for Christ DID NOT DEFEND THEMSELVES, they mimicked Christ’s response before Pilate.

I strongly suggest you read Foxes Book of the Martyrs before claiming Smith was one.

[Godzilla]

Except the first 4 completely reject mormonite claim.

[ejonesie22]

The problem lies in the documentation.

As long as it is just “theory and hearsay” it is much easier to spin...

[reaganaut]

More like ignoring the time-wasting name-callers

- - - - - - -
Again, show me where I (or ejonesie) have called names.

I am one of the most vocal “anti’s” on here, I post facts, quotes, and experiences and get called names by the LDS (hater, bigot, liar).

Just because I know LDS history/doctrine and point out inconsistancies does not make me a ‘name caller’.

I do differentiate between Mormonism and Christianity, but that is no surprise since up until fairly recently the LDS did as well. They still claim to be the only “TRUE Christians”.

So if they are the “only true church” then their claims should withstand any criticism and scrutiny as your leaders have stated.

So I am challenging the LDS to follow the words of their leaders and honestly examine the criticism of the LDS church on their own and see if the LDS church will withstand real scrutiny.

[reaganaut]

I will be happy to discuss things with those who are honestly curious about things,

- - - - - -
Does that translate into those who will either consider converting or adopt a ‘live and let live attitude’.

When I was LDS, I didn’t mind discussing my beliefs as long as those beliefs were not challenged. If they were challenged, I became defensive and called it bashing (which we often see here).

Interestingly, those who ticked me off enough to prove them wrong are the ones that made me really look at LDS beliefs.

I was happy with my “religion” (LDS), but I didn’t really know Christ, I couldn’t because my focus was on ‘the church’ and Christ is a footnote in many ways to the LDS.

Losing my LDS faith was painful. I don’t deny that. But the relationship (not religion) I have with Jesus now can in no way compare with the self righteous spiritual void I had being LDS.

[reaganaut]

Wow, hit and run...

[ejonesie22]

1. Mormons do NOT believe in the traditional description of the Trinity. We believe in the biblical Triad or threeness of the Godhead. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. These three separate and distinct entities are God by nature and share a oneness in a manner that cannot be imagined. We do not believe God is nonmaterial, is Mind, is three hypostates in one ousia (whatever that is). We believe God is a spirit being who dwells in an immortal material body just as we are spirit beings dwelling in mortal bodies.

So you are polytheist, gods in a committee.

2. Mormons believe Jesus is God. The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants explicitly and repeatedly state Jesus is God incarnate, who was the Old Testament YHWH God of the Hebrews, who is from everlasting to everlasting, who is the Eternal God.,/p>

So you are not Polytheist but non trinitarian trinitarians...

3. Mormons believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin and death. We believe his Atonement, that mindless, terrifying substitution sacrifice STARTED in the Garden of Gethsemane. The agony he went through was so intense that he, despite being God, was so great he bled blood. His nature of being God and his nature of being sinless, allowed him to become our substitute. One sinless God is a fair substitute for an infinite number of sinful men. He, despite being the greatest of all, allowed himself the indignity of dying a slave’s death on the cross. He rose from the dead three days later, triumphing over death and now sits at the Father’s right hand.

So there is only one god, just a lot of them...

You are right who can argue with that...

[svcw]

Ok, I am sorry. We should engage in conversation but this is just to funny for words.

we believe women are naturally more righteous than men. This is why the Priesthood is given only to men since we need it in order to approach the spiritual level of women.

[T. P. Pole]

"spread mistruths"
Show me where I have done that. Seriously.

Here (post 52) is an example.

At the time I knew it was sarcasm. But there clearly were people on that thread that did not, and who knows how many that did not respond that also left with a false understanding.

Now I agree that this is a small example, especially when compared to things like we worship Joseph Smith or don't sing Christmas hymns. But it is a mis-truth.

And, alas, this has to be a hit-and-run post. I'll try to look/respond later tonight or tomorrow sometime.

[greyfoxx39]

WOW!

A perfect "10" for the contortion on THIS! In fact, we believe women are naturally more righteous than men. This is why the Priesthood is given only to men since we need it in order to approach the spiritual level of women.

And, AGAIN...mormons can't bring themselves to capitalize the pronouns referring to God and Jesus, but capitalize the "C" in church when speaking of their orgnization.

[CommerceComet]

our belief system, if firmly embraced, demands a lot of personal sacrifice

Isn't that true of all works-based religions? While I have a lot of personal respect for the Mormons whom I know, one personal characteristic is always lacking in Mormons that I see in all true Christians: joy. It should be no mystery as to why. As Christians we have full assurance that Jesus Christ has paid for all our sins and we can look forward to the judgment without fear (1 John 4:17-19). Our salvation was secured through the work of Jesus Christ. Mormons, on the other hand, are never sure if they have done enough to win God's favor.

I haven't had time to read through the thread but did that phrase by the author bother anyone else?

[ejonesie22]

You naughty girl you...

SHAME SHAME!!!!

[ejonesie22]

That whole post made my brain hurt..

[ejonesie22]

[greyfoxx39]

our belief system, if firmly embraced, demands a lot of personal sacrifice

Well, CC it didn't bother me in the sense that the statement is totally correct.

Now, as to whether all that work really leads to salvation....that's one of the basic reasons that mormonism is not Christianity.

When you consider facts such as the exclusion of "unworthy" family members and friends from mormon temple weddings, the sacrifice of time away from family in duties to the institution, missionaries not being able to leave the mission field in case of serious illiness or death of family members, the coercive implementation of tithing used as "dues" paid to enter the exclusive temple in which the rituals therein are required to enter mormon Heaven...

Yeah, there's a lot of self-sacrifice involved. Most of which is not really voluntary. That is if, as a believing mormon, you want to spend "eternity" with your family.