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To: P-Marlowe

If you accept the fact that you were born with a sinful nature and that your nature was in rebellion against God, then you would naturally be incapable of accepting God's gift because the thought of that alone would be as pleasing to your natural heart as the thought of eating a bowl of strawberries covered in syrup of ipecac.

Yes, we are born with a sinful nature and are by nature, in rebellion against God. This does not mean that we don't know we are sinners. Every one knows they are sinners whether they are saved or not. God draws us to himself and we can choose to either accept his gift or not. Choosing to repent may be as pleasing as eating ipecac but people do eat ipecac when they know they need it.

In our natural state we are all Christopher Hitchens. We are born with natural enmity against God. So therefore in order for us to accept this Gift, our nature must be changed from one of enmity against God to Love and Fear of God.If God makes the change, then God and God alone becomes our Savior. However if God does not change our nature and somehow we can muster up within our own selves and through our own nature the ability to turn our enmity against God into a profound love of God such that we are now willing to turn from our sins voluntarily and repent and follow Christ, then we are in effect our own saviors.

We can choose to accept God while we are still sinners with a sinful nature. God does draw all men to Himself but many resist him. Its a choice. We don't change our nature in order to accept Gods gift. God changes our nature when we surrender. Again, believing in Jesus does not 'earn' salvation. The price was death on the cross. The penalty was paid in full on the cross. Nothing we can do can add to that. We have been paid for by Jesus's blood. God only asks that we believe and he freely forgives those who believe because the debt was paid for by Christ.

But I think deep down you must recognize that you didn't save yourself (unless you are a full blown Pelagian). It was either your work or the work of God. I suspect that if you are truly saved, that you will recognize that it was entirely the work of God and that it was a miracle that you ever turned to Him and that you could possibly Love him. But if it was just in your nature to turn to him and love him and God did not violate your free will to bring you to him, then I don't think you can escape the conclusion that you saved yourself.

The difference between us is I believe God gave us free will, you don't seem to think so. If we didn't have free will and if we didn't have the knowledge of good and evil we wouldn't have sin. We would be no better or worse than a dog that bites the mail man. Calvinists believe we are no different than a dog and just follow our nature that God gave us but we are different. We are made in His image and can choose good over evil. The fact that we sin when we know better condemns us. The rich young man Jesus called to follow Him had a real decision to make. He chose wealth over God. That was a choice he made of his own free will. Do you think that God predestined him to go to hell and was only teasing him when he said to give away all he has and follow Him? Do you think that man had the freedom to obey and follow? I do.

1,027 posted on 03/12/2010 4:04:15 PM PST by Tramonto (Live Free or Die)
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To: Tramonto; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; the_conscience
Every one knows they are sinners whether they are saved or not.

I don't think so. Obviously you haven't read all the posts on this thread. I think there are posters who would not recognize the idea that they are sinners. I suspect most of the world thinks that their own good works outweigh any bad deeds they have done, if they are even willing to admit to themselves that they have actually done any bad deeds.

Choosing to repent may be as pleasing as eating ipecac but people do eat ipecac when they know they need it.

Indeed, but only when they recognize the gravity of their situation. By then the Holy Spirit has already done His work and their hearts have been changed. Tell me, can a man bring his own dead heart to life by the power of his will? Or does God need to change their hearts and interfere with their free will in order to bring them to this point where they will eat the ipecac coated strawberries?

The difference between us is I believe God gave us free will, you don't seem to think so.

No he did give you a free will, but until God interferes with that will to mold it into a heart which will turn to him, that free will is a slave to the sinful nature. I am actually rather amazed at the number of Arminians who view the idea of a "free will" as some kind of blessing, when in fact it is actually a curse.

Do you really want to have a "free will" or do you want to have your will molded to that of Christ so that God's will becomes your will? If you want your will to be free rather than a slave to Christ, then are you really in God's will? Can you really call yourself saved if you prefer your own free will to the will of Christ?

Lord, take this cursed free will from me! Mold my will to Yours. Enslave my will to Your will, Oh Lord and let the old things pass away so that all things become new!

Can you say that prayer?

1,032 posted on 03/12/2010 5:52:49 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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