Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Just to be clear, we consider hyper-Calvinism to be anti-Calvinism since it violates scripture right and left. Logical implications can be fine (such as double predestination), but not when they contradict God's word. For example, a hyper-Calvinist might say that witnessing is a waste of time, but we know that witnessing is commanded by God, therefore, it cannot be a waste of time.
If we say that love is an action then before creation there was love within the Trinity. The Bible specifically mentions love between the Father and Son, for example.
No, not at all. This again is hyper-Calvinism, which is anti-Calvinism. Calvinists proclaim that Paul openly and clearly addresses the above way of thinking and SHREDS IT TO RIBBONS. Paul says over and over "BY NO MEANS!" :) Hyper-Calvinism is anti-Biblical and therefore anti-Calvinist. It would be like saying that conservatism leads to hyper-conservatism which is Nazism. No, American conservatism utterly and completely rejects Nazism. The latter is NOT a logical extension of the former.
Marlowe: The general argument is that if they don't spend that penny then maybe they are not really numbered among the elect. It seems to me to be a back-door approach to the idea that you are saved by works.
Your analysis is correct and I would strongly disagree with any Calvinist who told you this, IF he or she was speaking from the perspective of the hypothetical giver. If, however, the perspective was from a third-party onlooker, then it could be said that absence of works shows some evidence of a heart that has not been changed. My Reformed answer would be that we support missionary work because as believers we have been given new hearts of flesh that WANT to obey God. I would say that financially supporting missionary work would be well within the spirit of the Great Commission so the heart of an elect believer will want to help without even thinking of it being to "cover" himself works-wise.
Some will say this is TMI, but when I wear my kilt I go “regimental.”
Thank you A-G. I have a copy of this answer. In fact, it's like any other I asnwer I get from you...same stuff, different number. If you want to make a comment, make a comment in your own words, but cutting and pasting the same lines over an dover gets old.
Love is a name (noun), not action (verb). Love by itself implies no specific action. One can be "in love" and do nothing. It almost seems as if God sought his own purpose in creating the world. Radical thought, I understand... :)
Darn it! :)
I guess some people see God's offer as just that, an offer. Calvinists see it as a done deal.
No, Mr. Rogers, a belief is a willing acceptance of something on faith (trust) alone.
What's the difference? God's word is inspired, infallible and perfect for its intended use. We rely on Holy Spirit to help us with correct interpretation of His perfect word. It should be expected that Holy Spirit would use His own words to communicate with us. Scripture interprets Scripture.
In your previous argument, you stated that temporal happiness was related to knowledge of the Gospel. I still challenge you to provide evidence that Reformed reprobates led happier lives on earth knowing the Gospel.
I don't think I said it that strongly. I believe that temporal happiness can certainly be enhanced by living a comparatively moral life. Knowledge of the Gospel and/or its surrounding principles would be a source of such morality. I base this on common sense. Do you disagree with this supposition? For example, do you believe that on average morally depraved individuals are generally happier people than those who lead moral lives? I think common sense would answer in the negative.
I will further ask whether that is even pertinent.
Not terribly. I thought I brought it up in trying to answer a question from you. :)
An eternity in the agony of hell dwarfs a lifetime of being a Reformed reprobate, does it not?
Yes, there is no comparison.
Does it then matter?
Not very much, as I said in the earlier post. I was answering your saying or implying that it made no difference of any kind at all. I disagreed and said it made some difference lasting only during this lifetime, and without comparing it to eternity.
If the Reformed Holy Spirit transfers all required knowledge to the newly transformed believer, then there is no point to any printed matter, since the believer will have all that he requires.
OK, now we have something to work with. :) The grace that the elect receive does not take the form of a "docu-dump" of knowledge. It takes the form of having eyes and ears opened. At that point, the printed matter then, for the first time, becomes believABLE to the person, who may well have read it many times before but not believing. Faith comes by hearing the word, but one must have opened ears for it to work. That is why we still need the Gospel, whether in written form or orally, in the normal course to come to faith after we have been touched by the Spirit.
Preaching the Gospel to the Reformed reprobate is worse than useless to them, since it might be considered the equivalent of taunting them with something that they cannot attain.
It can't be taunting since neither party has any idea if the listener is reprobate or not. Preaching the Gospel to someone who turns out to be reprobate is still done in good faith and in obedience to God. Therefore it is good and not a waste. As to whether it is "worse than useless" to the reprobate I have already made my point that I think it is better than useless temporally, although nothing in comparison to eternity.
LOL!!!
Mar 9:24 Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe; help my unbelief."
Welcome to humanity. ;O)
According to scripture, faith is a gift.
Why would he rebuke them for having too little of what he gave them - and apparently gave them insufficiently?
In almost every case in scripture where our Lord talks about the faith that man has, it is in regards to "Oh men of little faith..." This isn't a rebuke-it is an observation. Christ said that if you have the faith the size of a grain of mustard seed you can cast a mountain into the ocean. Have you seen anyone do that? Man does not and cannot manufacture faith. It is given to us by God. Our Lord was simply pointing this out to everyone, including his disciples.
I am aware of the very few scriptural exceptions of people who "had faith" such as the centurion. I believe our Lord said something like "Not in all Israel have I seen such faith." This was used to underscore a point from God that even in Israel, the keepers of the Law, our Lord couldn't find saving faith.
If belief is a gift, irresistibly given by God, there needs be no reason, for we will be unable to do anything other than believe!
Once we come to the knowledge of the truth, there IS no other thing but to believe. It's like Peter said:
What arrogance replaces the word of God with the words of Calvin!
I find the arrogance lies in the fact that man refuses to give God the credit for their own faith.
Don't know. Actually, I don't care. Scripture is about God's relationship with man. It's not a history of God.
Do you know what the word "Satan" means? It's not a name.
Are you saying that God, or God's Word, is not logical?
And no, I'm not talking the "spiritual man" vs. "natural man" stuff. I'm talking rules of logic.
A developing story.
Kosta, we've discussed before, and my take on your responses has always been that you have stated that you don't accept scripture as the Word of God, that you don't accept the reality of a spiritual realm, and that you always apply a mechanistic universe model to every discussion.
In short, you've demonstrated to me that you lack faith. I don't say that as an accusation. It is merely an observation. That is why A-G's scriptures that she's posted to you, and that you have discounted, are so appropriate.
The Bible does say about God that those who come to Him must believe that He is and that He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I don't think you're there yet.
Why do you assume that “receiving” is active rather than passive?
We receive faith. As many as received Him to them gave He power to become Children of God.
Resisting, on the other hand, is active. “You do always resist the Holy Spirit...”
Receive vs resist. The latter condemns. “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Those who are lost own it by active resistance. Those who are saved have not actively done anything. They have passively received.
Those who resist demonstrate that “they are of their father, the devil.”
Those who receive demonstrate that they are “My sheep (who) hear My voice, and they know me and follow Me.”
All salvation is, then, of “grace through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no man can boast.”
I might point out that “a gift” is RECEIVED.
” According to scripture, faith is a gift. / Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”
Do Calvinists ever read scripture, or do they just read verses in a list?
Here is what it says:
5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Faith exists when one believes God and accepts the Gospel. [Note - faith means “confidence or trust in a person or thing”, so one person must believe something or someone to have faith.] Notice this: “And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
So evangelism is a wonderful thing, but IN CONTEXT ‘faith comes from hearing’ is tied to “how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard” - so one who hears and responds has faith. Not as a gift from God, given after regeneration by election.
“In almost every case in scripture where our Lord talks about the faith that man has, it is in regards to “Oh men of little faith...” This isn’t a rebuke-it is an observation.”
Really? They sure sound like rebukes to me.
Mat 21:32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.”
As a rule of thumb, when a prostitute is being held up as a positive example to a religious leader, the religious leader is being rebuked.
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
What does that SAY? “he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart”.
“Once God opens our eyes and ears, and gives us His wisdom from above, there is no turning back.”
Yet apart from faith, there is no regeneration. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
He gives life to those who receive him. Life follows receiving him. It doesn’t precede it.
“You refuse to come to me that you may have life.”
Come to him and receive life. Not, receive life and you will come.
“I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Not, unless I give you life, you will not believe, but “...unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
“While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.”
Believe, that you may become.
“And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe.”
Not, you may receive belief, but you may believe - it is something we do, not something we receive.
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
That you may believe...not that you may receive belief, but that you may believe - something we do.
And by believing, we may have life. Believing comes before life, and is the means by which we receive life.
If you go to the following link, you will find the 264 times in 220 verses that the Greek word pisteuo is used (KJV Greek concordance because the web site is working on their NASB greek concordance).
Not all are applicable, but I haven’t tried to filter it in any way, so anyone can judge for themselves - is belief something we do, or a gift given by God independent of us?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4100&t=ESV
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