Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen..." -- Hebrews 11:1
Why would you despair over the lost?
Are you angry at God for not choosing them?
Should you not hate the people that God hates?
Psalm 139:21
Talk about eisegesis!
“Scripture reference, please”
Act 15:8-9, And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Prepositions matter.
Do all good things come from God?
Do we have anything that is not first God-given?
Who made you to differ from the guy next door who doesn't believe?
Faith in Christ is His emblem.
Is that the synergism which isn't synergism or the fatalistic determinism which isn't fatalistic determinism?
Who made you to differ from the guy next door who doesn't believe?
How do I know he isn't in better spiritual shape than me? How do I know that he isn't elect and I am? What if my faith is mine and not God's? What if my conversion is a false conversion and whatever spiritual life I have in me isn't death? What if my neighbor is elected to be saved by an infusion of faith in his last breath and my faith is nothing more than my reprobate heart playing tricks on me convincing me that God has infused me with saving faith, when in fact he hates me as he hated Esau?
What makes you or I the objects of God's love when Esau was the object of his hatred? And how do you know you are not deceived? Does God owe it to a reprobate to tell him that his faith is not a saving faith or his belief is nothing more than an illusion of his reprobate mind?
That’s a stretch!
You do realize Acts 15:8-9 is referring to this:
“42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
“Everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” - and the Holy Spirit was poured out, even on Gentiles, who received the Holy Spirit just like Peter did (who believed first, and then received).
Hardly evidence that we are born again by election, and then are given faith as the fruit of our salvation!
And Hebrews 11? YGBSM - if you’ll forgive an old Wild Weasel!
Hebrews 11:2 “For by it the people of old received their commendation.” We receive commendation for what we could not resist?!
Abraham is in that list, and what does scripture say of him? “6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”
And Moses? “24By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.”
Moses CHOSE to be with the people of God, by faith. Faith was the cause, not the end result.
“30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.”
By faith they fell, not they fell and the people received faith.
And Dr E writes - although she knows it is not correct - “Hebrews 11 provides excellent Scripture supporting the fact that faith is a free gift of God’s grace (Eph. 2) and thus it is the evidence of our salvation by God.”
As another poster explained some time ago:
“The thing to note here is that the “that” that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun “riches” and to that noun’s apposition “gift,” also singular neuter. It doesn’t refer to “faith” because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender.
A better way of translating this passage would be simply to repeat the noun to which the pronoun refers and to make sure the parenthetical comments appear as such both times.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace you are saved) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding wealth of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith). And that exceeding wealth, the gift of God, is not of yourselves. It is not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, in which God has before ordained that we should walk. “
As I’ve posted to Dr E many times, in the Greek, Ephesians 2 says salvation is God’s gift - NOT faith.
Guess I’m still waiting for scriptural evidence that faith is the result of salvation, rather than the means by which we are saved by God’s grace.
“Ephesians 2 says grace saves, not faith. Men are saved by grace through faith.”
I’m waiting for the citation, “You are saved by grace through election.”
If true - and that is what Calvinism declares, that it is God’s work of election that is the root of our salvation, not the faith that comes afterward - then shouldn’t it be explicitly stated SOMEWHERE? ONCE?
That would solve everything, eh? Then what would we have to talk about on the FR Religion forum?
I know... Icons!
As I’ve posted to Dr E many times, in the Greek, Ephesians 2 says salvation is God’s gift - NOT faith.
We’ve been over this before.
“By saying “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours, or “conditioned on faith on our part”, a man saves himself; it turns faith into works because it says it is our action that saves us. Whether the ‘that’ in “that not of yourselves” refers to faith or to grace, it does not matter; ‘you are saved’, says Paul, ‘by grace, and that not of yourselves’. The neuter gender “and that” does not necessarily exclude “faith”, “the difference of gender is not fatal to such a view, but the context demands a wider reference”, (J.A. Robinson). F.F Bruce writes, “It is probably best to understand “and this” as referring to salvation as a whole, not excluding the faith by which it is received”.”
Guess I’m still waiting for scriptural evidence that faith is the result of salvation, rather than the means by which we are saved by God’s grace.
How can “ded” men have life enough to exercise faith?
“If they were able to choose to believe or reject why then does Paul say in Eph. 2:1, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”; 4-5, “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;”?
But why, if they are already saved?
Election is the name for the will and purpose of God which determine who will believe
Are you saying that unless the elect hear the Gospel they are not actually saved?
I know... Icons!
How about them crazy Pentecostal snake handlers?
AMEN, Dr. E.! God is sovereign and will grant unearned mercy upon whomever He chooses. The Scriptures describe to us a unique and particular God. Based on the knowledge we have been given we might make educated guesses about some decisions our God might make that are consistent with the knowledge we have been given about His nature and attributes. While in cases like these we cannot declare with certainty, we can make reasonable assumptions being confident that in our hearts we are attempting to give glory to Him.
I see you have changed your original objection to something obviously not contended, apparently because you have been shown how your original objection is faulty. No one has claimed that faith is a result of salvation. It is the means by which we are saved it just doesn't happen until we are called by the Holy Spirit.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sin.
Indeed, a thing is true because God says it, not because it measures up to some human standard of truth.
Truly you say, "Man is not the measure of God."
And truly you say, "God has revealed His Name to us both as Alpha and Omega and I AM."
Thank you ever so much, my dearest sister in Christ, for these penetrating insights into the "time problem!" Plenty of clues there, if folks want to follow them....
If it is the means by which you are saved, and the faith is "yours" then you have just defined salvation as synergism, the combination of God's grace and man's response. Regardless of how a man gets saving faith, he must have his own saving faith in order to be saved. It is his. Hence you have man participating in his own salvation.
You can run semantical rings around the issue, but when it comes down to it, even you dyed-in-the-wool Calvinists are synergists, unless you are a hyper-Calvinist (who are actually the only theological consistent monergists).
“You can run semantical rings around the issue”
No I don’t need to run semantical rings around the issue. It is my faith but I would not have had that faith unless the Holy Spirit quickened my desires. It’s not that difficult. The quickening produces faith and faith is the means of justification. Even you as an Arminian accept that the Holy Spirit needs to do some work so it would be equally stupid if I claimed you were a monergist because you have the Holy Spirit doing a work first.
““By saying “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours, or “conditioned on faith on our part”, a man saves himself; it turns faith into works because it says it is our action that saves us”
Incorrect. We do not save ourselves, but God saves us - on the condition HE set, which is faith (believing). Thus we find we are saved BY grace THRU faith. Thus Jesus says, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
JESUS imposes the condition, not me. And Jesus COULD have said, “So that any who are elect are saved”...but he didn’t.
Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
He could have said, “Those who are elect will be given belief”, but he didn’t. Instead, he commanded men to repent and believe. That is God’s condition, set by him in the plan he revealed to the Apostles. When the Philippian jailer asked, “What must I do to be saved?”, he was told “Believe!”
“How can “ded” men have life enough to exercise faith?”
Well, in Luke 15, the ‘dead’ son has enough life to repent of his evil. And we are also called sick, or slaves to sin - and slaves can accept an offer of freedom.
And in Acts 10 we read, “1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.”
This was well before the Holy Spirit fell on him - yet what did God say? “At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household...”
Dead is one of the analogies used to describe our state before conversion. It is clearly not to be taken in total literalness, apart from all the other scriptures.
the_conscience: “No one has claimed that faith is a result of salvation. It is the means by which we are saved it just doesn’t happen until we are called by the Holy Spirit.”
Actually, Dr E wrote, ““Hebrews 11 provides excellent Scripture supporting the fact that faith is a free gift of God’s grace (Eph. 2) and thus it is the evidence of our salvation by God.”
If faith is the evidence of our salvation, and a gift we receive from God because of his election of us to live and irresistibly receive faith, then yes, we are saved by grace thru election, and faith is the result of our salvation, not the means by which God decides who will receive his pardon.
“F.F Bruce writes, “It is probably best to understand “and this” as referring to salvation as a whole, not excluding the faith by which it is received”.””
I like F.F. Bruce, but this is a case of reading one’s theology into the passage, not from the passage. The Greek is clear. Furthermore, there is not a single passage elsewhere that would justify saying faith is a gift given us, when it is presented again and again as something we do.
Jesus accuses the religious leaders, saying “you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” THEY refuse. He doesn’t say, “I won’t let you”, or “My Father refuses to let you”, but “YOU REFUSE TO COME”. And he blames them for their failure!
None of this negates the fact that it is all God’s grace. If God didn’t reach down, and make a provision for rebellious men while we were yet rebels, none of us would have any hope. But scripture clearly teaches that not all respond to God’s revelation the same way, and those who refuse will die for their refusing - which is their choice.
Can you at least admit that you think we are saved by a new law?
“Even you as an Arminian accept that the Holy Spirit needs to do some work so it would be equally stupid if I claimed you were a monergist because you have the Holy Spirit doing a work first.”
Speaking for myself, God graciously gives some revelation to all, or virtually all. See Romans 1 - He doesn’t harden their hearts until after they knew Him as God: “21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened...24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...”
The point is that scripture teaches the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted, and those who resist the Holy Spirit - the one who “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” - and those who resist, lose. Those who resist do not believe, so they do not have faith.
“11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1
Note the believing precedes regeneration. Those who believe become.
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