WHO REALLY IS 'ANTI-CATHOLIC?'

Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 1-23-10 | James Swan

[Cronos]

Err, IIRC, Jesus was “begotten, not made”.

Oh, this is not about what you or I believe. I was just asking Iscool his beliefs

[xone]

we don't hate on them

I can't believe I used that phrase. I despise it. Lose the 'on'. Sounds like something out of the Message.

[xone]

Is the Trinity beyond human reason, or might it be revealed to the human spirit by God the Holy Spirit,

The question you pose really isn't, both parts are correct. The Holy Spirit is the 'author' of true doctrine.

[esquirette]

Nice.

[Uri’el-2012]

Yet my Messianic Jewish friends KNOW who Yahweh is. They KNOW my Lord Yeshua. and they KNOW Ruach HaKodesh. They KNOW both Covenants, and understand them (probably better than any other). And they preach the Gospel of the Risen Christ. They hold *no* writings to be more important, or anywhere near equal to the Holy Oracles of Almighty God.

Yet some would build a rift and a wall against them because of a technicality that cannot be proven? They are not "Christian" because they are not "Trinitarian" according to the TRADITION of men?

Please. What hubris. What unmitigated gall. It is not ours to sanction. That is the Spirit's job.

I sense in UriÂ’el that he follows The Way. Rather than denigrating him for that, one should learn instead.

Isaiah defines the two witnesses of the Lord - Judah, who is deaf, and Ephraim who cannot see.

Before the end, Christ WILL hold Ephraim and Judah in His hand, as ONE STICK. I will readily predict that stick will not look like Judaism, nor like present day Christianity, regardless of the confession.

Amen.

The biggest trap the trinity causes is as some of the more "learned" Romanists have
expressed; they reject or ignore the god of the first covenant as mean and nasty.

They prefer the Jesus that they have constructed with their traditions of man.

Do not confuse Judaism with Rabbinism which seeks to replace the written Torah with the so-called "Oral Torah" which is their "Holy Tradition". I'm sure that sounds familiar.

As a study model of Judaism without the tradition of man look to Karaite Judaism .

One day soon i'll have to do a detailed study of how there is only ONE YHvH
and how it can be understood with the artificial construct of the "trinity"

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Cronos]

I believe Scripture is silent for a reason on Marian aspects outside of the facts leading up to the Virgin birth of our Lord. And that is that Scripture isn't about Mary, it is about Christ, all of it.

True! Sripture is about Christ.

the IC doesn't contradict scripture but arose out of a response to Arius, Marcion, etc. who doubted Christ or Yahweh?

[xone]

I just don't like it if someone starts attacking me for what I as a Catholic, sincerely believe is scriptural, historical and even logical.

I wouldn't either. But I try and limit the rancor, not always successfully, but thanks to the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His authorship of my faith, I don't have to be perfect, just forgiven.

[Iscool]

I think I am going to have to jump on the bandwagon of those who think that statement is at odds with the Christian understanding of the Trinity. Maybe you should explain what you mean, because on the surface that is the kind of statement I would expect from a Jehovah's witness or maybe a Mormon.

The first thing I will say is it is beyond ANYONE's understanding...But people don't let that get in the way of their apparent need to understand...And when the understanding can't be found, people turn to their own reasoning and human logic to explain it...

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

These are familiar verses...And they are not complicated...When Jesus leaves, the Holy Spirit shows up...And Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father...

Very clearly, there are three...

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is just a small sampling of the scripture on the issue...

People get so hung up on understanding the Trinity, they tend to dis-believe the scriptures that speak of the Trinity...

We were made in the image of God...We have a body, a soul and a spirit...But yet to look at us, all you see is one...

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Jesus wasn't speaking to Himself...But yet;

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

It's a mystery...It has not been revealed to ANYONE...There are 3, but they are one...That's what the scripture says and I believe it...I'm not required to understand it...

[xone]

Thanks, a guy just can’t sleep around here. Didn’t have a lot of ‘yes or no’ responses this AM.

[Cronos]

I found this really cool site --> http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/arius-chart

[xone]

I went to bed 10 minutes too early. Very nice.

[Cronos]

Is the Trinity beyond human reason, or might it be revealed to the human spirit by God the Holy Spirit, and then made known to our mind from the spirit and then when comprehended in categories of other Bible doctrine made available to the human reason in our hearts, but all through faith in Christ?

Apologies for jumping in, but I do believe that we can never completely understand the Trinity. God's immensity is too much for our little minds. I think we can have a hazy idea of what it is and a strong idea of what it is NOT (e.g. we are not polytheists like Hindus).

[Cronos]

ok, I will read that — I meant that sola scriptura is also used by non-Trinitarians as justification for their beliefs.

[Cronos]

The biggest trap the trinity causes is as some of the more "learned" Romanists have expressed; they reject or ignore the god of the first covenant as mean and nasty.

Ok:
1. This concept of the Trinity is not limited to Romanists, but is held by Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists etc. Essentially the vast bulk of Christians believe in that idea of the Trinity that you attack
2. None of this vast bulk of Christians "reject or ignore the God of the first covenant as mean and nasty" -- that would be Marcionism or worse, Gnosticism.
3. One day soon i'll have to do a detailed study of how there is only ONE YHvH and how it can be understood with the artificial construct of the "trinity" and of course, you believe that the rest of us Anglicans, Baptists, REformed, Mennonites, Lutherans, Catholics, Methodists, Orthodox, Copts, Armenians, Assyrians etc. are wrong since we have this artificial construct of the "trinity", correct?

[Quix]

Perhaps we should notify the rabid clique . . . so they can mount a protest march until the name is changed and the sign removed.

/sar

Sheesh.

[Cronos]

But I try and limit the rancor, not always successfully,

Well, we always fail and if you see a post that hits at the ECUSA and blames Luther, that is wrong and can make you see red and I'd agree with you that it was wrong.

[xone]

Where was this please.

[Quix]

Given the slippery mental gymnastics . . . it’s a wonder some of their bodies don’t end up like contortionists.

[Cronos]

Ok, but you still said that Jesus is still separate from God...As is the Holy Spirit...

So you say that Jesus is not God?

[Cvengr]

Agreed, but to the soulish man, the Trinity is beyond reason, while to the new man, through faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit is able to provide the work of faith in us, revealing the Trinity to our reason.