Do Christians Need Only the Bible?

cna ^

[NYer]

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

Most Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the only source concerning faith. According to them, there is no need for Apostolic Tradition or an authoritative, teaching Church. All that they need is the Bible in order to learn about the faith and to live a Christian life. The "Bible Alone" teaching can be appealing in its simplicity, but it suffers from fundamental problems. A few are considered here.

First the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]

According to John 20:31, some things have been recorded in the Gospel in order to come to know Christ; however, John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:

I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]

Also St. Paul instructs Timothy on how to orally pass on the teachings of the faith:

...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [2 Tim. 2:2]

St. Paul even commands (2 Thess. 3:6) the Thessalonian Christians to follow the oral Traditions of the Apostles:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]

These commands promoting Oral Tradition would be quite strange, if only the Bible were needed to pass on the entire Christian faith.

A second problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is canonicity - i.e. which Books belong in the Bible? It must be remembered that the Books of the Bible were written individually along with other religious books. Centuries later the Church compiled together the inspired Books under one cover to form the "Bible." A big question in the early Church was which books are the inspired written Word of God. (Inspired=written by men but authored by God; See Catechism of the Catholic Church 106.)

Scripture did not come with an "inspired" Table of Contents. Nowhere in the sacred texts are all the Books listed. There are some Books cited in the sacred writings but these lists are vague and incomplete (Acts 28:23; 2 Peter 3:16). There are also references to books not found in the Bible, such as St. Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16). St. Paul even encourages the Colossians to read this epistle, but still it is not in the Bible. Jesus in the Gospel never attempts to list the "official" Books of the Old Testament (OT). This issue was hotly debated in His day. Today Protestant and Catholic Christians disagree over which Books belong in the OT. Catholics follow the list in the Septuagint (2nd century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture) while Protestants follow the list used by the Pharisees. A list from Jesus could have eliminated this problem, but no such list is found in the Gospel. As a result the Bible needs a visible authority outside of itself to list the inspired sacred Books. This authority must be guided by the Holy Spirit since these Books are from the Holy Spirit.

Some Christians claim that the Table of Contents in their Bible lists the inspired Books. Even though found in modern Bibles, the Table of Contents is still not inspired. It is not the Word of God but words added later by human editors, much similar to footnotes. The Table of Contents is basically the opinion of the publishing editor. Others may claim that the closing verses in the Book of Revelation, specifically Rev. 22:18-19, cap off the Bible and define all the preceding Books as inspired by God. But do these verses apply to the whole Bible or only the Book of Revelation? Another flaw with this idea is that not all Bibles have the same number of Books. As alluded to above, Catholic and Protestant Bibles contain different numbers of OT Books, yet all these Bibles close with the same verses: Rev. 22:18ff. Both cannot be right. Finally the Book of Deuteronomy contains similar verses (4:2 & 12:32). Does this imply that the Books after Deuteronomy are not inspired by God? No.

A third problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is proper understanding of critical Bible passages. Most Protestant Christians promote personal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. anyone can interpret these passages by himself. Unfortunately this leads to chaos. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Sadly the "Yellow Pages" phone directory is a witness to the many "Bible-Based" churches who disagree with each other over key issues of the Christian faith. Personal interpretation of the Bible naturally leads to a mire of human doctrines as a result of differing personal opinions.

The Bible was not written as a catechism. It is a collection of many different styles of writing - poetry, history, parables, letters, songs, etc. - requiring different ways of understanding. Sometimes Jesus in the Gospel purposely taught in figurative language and parables, which makes literal interpretation impossible. Even St. Peter admits that St. Paul's Epistles can be difficult to understand:

...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]

Finally the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30ff needed St. Philip to explain the Book of Isaiah. Obviously not everyone can understand the meaning of Scripture by simply reading it. More is required. These difficulties in the Bible demand an independent visible teaching authority that is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Even the Bible points to the importance of the Church for teaching the Truth. According to St. Peter in the Bible:

First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]

At least prophecies in the Bible are not a matter of personal interpretation. These prophesies must be properly interpreted by "men moved by the Holy Spirit" since the Holy Spirit is the Author. These "men" are the Bishops of the Church - the successors to the Apostles (Acts 20:28-32). Finally the Bible does not call itself the bulwark of the truth; however, St. Paul does make reference to the Church in those terms:

...the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]

According to the Bible, the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
All Christians, including Catholics, should read the Bible in order to grow more in the faith; however, we still need the Church. The Church is needed to accurately pass on Apostolic Tradition (Romans 10:17), define the canon of the Bible (i.e. list the inspired Books), safeguard the accurate transmission (e.g. translations) of the Bible and interpret key passages, all with guidance from the Holy Spirit according to God's Will. The Church is needed for other reasons too. It must be understood that the Church is not merely men making arbitrary decisions but men executing authority from God guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church may at times be tested by scandals or scarred by the sins of men. We may sometimes disagree with the policies of the Church, but she is still the instrument of the Holy Spirit. This visible Church is the one built by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, the rock (Matt. 16:18-19; John 1:24). This is the Catholic Church.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen.

And thank you for your testimony, dear brother in Christ!

[1010RD]

The Prodigal Son teaches that one can be selfish, wasteful and irresponsible, then come back say "I am sorry" and be rewarded.

Kosta has gotten this right and AG has in part as well. The Prodigal is welcomed back. He is not permanently shunned. He is a member of the household, but not a full heir like his brother. This parable carries a bigger message, no?

Might there not be degrees of rewards on God's part? Are some more valiant and committed than others?

[Alamo-Girl]

You want me to pretend that someone is out there while I am talking to the air? Just because you say there is? You still diond't answer my simple question.

God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I've known Him for a half century and counting.

Any demand that I "prove" Him is absurd. Thus, I dismiss your questions out-of-hand.

Why was it "irrational?"

The example was of a nice Palestinian man going postal at the mention of Jews.

The rest of your post consists of your judgments against God and Christ.

As I said before, God will not justify Himself to you and neither will I.

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee. Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes. - Job 42:1-6

Man is not the measure of God.

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying], Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. – Psalms 2:1-5

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

[kosta50]

Such a test would be an insult to God. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. - Matt 4:7

Testing your faith is tempting God? LOL. Of course, I should have known, since obviously no one has sufficient faith to walk on water, then we must have a good excuse.

__________

As for the rest of your reply, I don't see any relevance to what I wrote in #1380.

[Quix]

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE PLANS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE DOINGS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE LORD WHO IS RIGHTEOUS IN ALL HIS WAYS.

[Quix]

Occasionally, in my life,

I’ve come across folks who’ve made it a hobby if not a vocation to try and stick their fingers in God’s eyes.

Usually, while ranting about His nonexistence.

Somewhat more rarely, I’ve had the impression that such folks were skating on extremely thin ice . . . not just that on judgment day would they find things hotter than they wished . . . but a lot sooner than they might imagine in their worst nightmares.

It’s always shocked me a bit how utterly ignorant of such hazards some such folks were.

Truly the Scripture is accurate . . . avoid bothering or being concerned about the wicked . . . for essentially, they are less substantial than a rare Phoenix fox and less durable as well.

Was it Johnathan Edwards who preached so movingly about how frightful it was to fall into the hands of an angry God Almighty . . . for spurning His Son’s Salvation.

It would appear that some folks NEVER learned the least bit of sanity about any kind of authority.

Sometimes, that seems to come from abusive parents from an early age. Sometimes it seems to come from parents who were laisez faire to the max and/or also hostile to the notion of God themselves.

Such offspring seem to chronically have troubled relationships with people in addition to being estranged from God.

And !!!!CONTROL!!!! issues are rampant points of friction.

Fascinating phenomenon that seems to be manifesting in more and more lives.

As Scripture predicted for this era . . . lawlessness and affrontery to God Almighty is building toward a maxed-out crescendo.

God have mercy.

[Alamo-Girl]

Might there not be degrees of rewards on God's part? Are some more valiant and committed than others?

Not a lot is written about the new heaven and new earth, the "Final Cause." But we know this much:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. - Revelation 21:1-8

And we know there will be nations outside the new Jerusalem:

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. - Revelation 21:22-27

Personally, I believe there will be those who have amassed many treasures in heaven and there will also be heavenly paupers.

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. - Matthew 6:19-21

But I doubt either will be resentful.

God's Name is I AM.

[boatbums]

When I read this story Jesus told about the lost (prodigal) son, I am struck by a number of things. They are:

The prodigal son (PS) was already in the family. He never stopped being a son.

The PS went out away from the father and lived a life of selfishness and sin. We do that sometimes. We rebel, we think we know better.

PS ran out of money and luck and realized he really had no true friends "in the world". We come to realize that though we are in the world, we are not of it - if we're smart.

PS "came to his senses" and realized the pigs had it better than him and what a fool he had been to leave. We realize that we are helpless without the Lord and lost with no reason for living. If we stray away from him, we come to realize the world brings only misery and sin is death.

PS decided to go home, not to pick up where he left off, but knowing the kind of man his dad was, at least he could be a servant, because the servants were well treated. We come to God in humility knowing that of ourselves we are not and can never be righteous or earn our salvation. We do not deserve his grace.

His father was waiting for him! Looking over the hill, searching for him to come back, one day, one day (the most touching part to me!). Our Heavenly Father seeks us and calls to us to come to him in faith. He never gives up on us.

PS' dad came out to greet him and kissed him before he even had a chance to say, "I'm sorry, Dad." Our Father loves us not based on any good we do but because he just does.

PS confessed his sin to his father, he admitted what he did was terribly wrong and said he did not expect anything. We come to God in repentance for our sinfulness and he promises to forgive and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He is always faithful and just. In fact, it is when we understand the love, mercy and kindess God shows us that we realize our need for him. When we confess our sin, we don't hide it behind excuses, but "name like he names it".

The father dressed him in fine clothes, put a ring on his finger and called for a feast calling to everyone to celebrate saying, "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." We are clothed in the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus. We can never earn or merit his grace, because grace would not be grace if we could.

Finally, the older brother didn't understand the fuss and felt he was not being treated fairly since he had always been a good son. This makes me think of the "so-very pious" among us, who fail to see how God sees and loves and rejoices over all who come to him. We should never get to the point in our walk with the Lord where we think we are holier or better than anyone else. That we are all saved by God's grace through no work or merit we can boast of.

So I guess I see this story somewhat differntly than some others may. It gives me hope and encouragement and in no way, I think, excuses or looks lightly on sin. It is a story of grace.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and testimony, dear brother in Christ!

I see spiritual rebellion as a "sign of the times."

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. – 2 Timothy 3:1-5 God's Name is I AM.

[Alamo-Girl]

What a beautiful testimony, dear brother in Christ! Thank you so very much for sharing your insights!

[boatbums]

No I was referring to Isa 13:16. Really? Care to elaborate?

You might want to read the whole chapter. It is both prophetic of the end-time to come (the tribulation) and of the overthrow by the Medes and Persians after the Babylonian rule.

[kosta50]

Not at all ignoring your irrational postulations

Then why bring up "risks" of doubting afterlife?

Thankfully, you and your posts are FAR from the highest priority in my life . . . as disappointing as that may be to you

I knew the best way to get you out of my hair was to start replying to your unceasing and unsolicited verbose fluff. Which is why I started replying to you.

I hope to get to them by Friday evening . . . assuming other priorities don’t intervene.

Oh, sure, I ask you a simple question and you are coming up with every kind of excuse, when otherwise not even polite requests can stop you from posting and avalanche of your nonsense to me!

Well, you wanted to talk, you baited and baited, and insinuated and provoked...with you silly posts, and now you are too "busy" to answer a simple question? Pathetic.

[boatbums]

Testing your faith is tempting God?

The Bible speaks of the "testing" of our faith but it is speaking of refining it like gold is refined to remove impurities. What I think you may be implying is that we can test God. This is what satan tried to do with Jesus after he was in the wilderness fasting for forty days. Not the same thing at all. Pretty sure though, after Peter got dunked for taking his eyes off the Lord that time on the water - although he did walk on the water some, if Jesus had given the chance again, I guarantee, he'd stay dry!

[Quix]

Quite so.

Quite soberingly so.

Thanks for your kind replies.

[Quix]

Sounds like some assumption modules

were aborted

or

mangled

or

the afterbirth was installed instead of the module proper.

[Quix]

Actually, I think it’s a blessing to work part time . . .

not pathetic.

I do see quite a lot of pathetic on this thread, however.

[kosta50]

Think of how the other son felt. He did everything right, yet the little playboy gets the fatted cow and is treated like gold.

What about the parable of the workers who were told they would get paid a certain amount for working a day in the field. Then, close to the end of the workday, another one shows up and he gets paid the same amount as others who worked there the entire day!

And what about king Solomon? Or his father David? Or the man who out of gratitude of God offers God the first thing he sees when he gets home and it turns out to be his beloved daughter. And God kills this man's daughter! Or Job? Job's reward is a new family and new cattle, like you can replace your loved ones...But he had mercy on Abraham for his faith...give me a break. It makes my skin itch.

Might there not be degrees of rewards on God's part?

Where? On earth or in the "afterlife?" Well, for sure it's not here on earth, for god rewards the righteous and the unrighteous, an his sun shines on both. But the Bible tells you not to worry if you get the shaft in this life, you will be like that beggar Lazarus, in "Abraham's bosom," while all the fat cats who did you wrong will be burning...unless they repent, of course at the last moment. Then it's just tough luck for you.

[hosepipe]

[ In the above passage, two things are particularly difficult for many: 1) forgiveness and 2) faith. ]

I am pretty sure there is no more important thing to humans than forgiveness.. whether you are christian or not..

The lack of forgiveness has made more people miserable and miserable to be around than anything I know..

The lack of forgiveness can plunge you into a "lake of fire" as surely as falling overboard.. for it is indeed a "fire".. a consuming fire..

If you can only teach your children ONE THING.. it should be to forgive freely and wisely.. You can remember as you wish without forgiveness at your own peril.. Forgiveness will heal your own mind.. A forgiving heart is not like a medicine, it is a medicine.. A medicine that casts out many demons..

The ONLY way to teach forgiveness is by doing it.. I don't know how anybody makes it without faith..

[kosta50]

I see you are very busy...and have no time until Friday to answer one simple question, but you can post a truckload of veiled insinuations. Do you really think this is conforming to Christ?