Posted on 01/23/2010 4:09:32 PM PST by NYer
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
Most Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the only source concerning faith. According to them, there is no need for Apostolic Tradition or an authoritative, teaching Church. All that they need is the Bible in order to learn about the faith and to live a Christian life. The "Bible Alone" teaching can be appealing in its simplicity, but it suffers from fundamental problems. A few are considered here.
First the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books:
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]
According to John 20:31, some things have been recorded in the Gospel in order to come to know Christ; however, John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:
I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]
Also St. Paul instructs Timothy on how to orally pass on the teachings of the faith:
...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [2 Tim. 2:2]
St. Paul even commands (2 Thess. 3:6) the Thessalonian Christians to follow the oral Traditions of the Apostles:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]
These commands promoting Oral Tradition would be quite strange, if only the Bible were needed to pass on the entire Christian faith.
A second problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is canonicity - i.e. which Books belong in the Bible? It must be remembered that the Books of the Bible were written individually along with other religious books. Centuries later the Church compiled together the inspired Books under one cover to form the "Bible." A big question in the early Church was which books are the inspired written Word of God. (Inspired=written by men but authored by God; See Catechism of the Catholic Church 106.)
Scripture did not come with an "inspired" Table of Contents. Nowhere in the sacred texts are all the Books listed. There are some Books cited in the sacred writings but these lists are vague and incomplete (Acts 28:23; 2 Peter 3:16). There are also references to books not found in the Bible, such as St. Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16). St. Paul even encourages the Colossians to read this epistle, but still it is not in the Bible. Jesus in the Gospel never attempts to list the "official" Books of the Old Testament (OT). This issue was hotly debated in His day. Today Protestant and Catholic Christians disagree over which Books belong in the OT. Catholics follow the list in the Septuagint (2nd century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture) while Protestants follow the list used by the Pharisees. A list from Jesus could have eliminated this problem, but no such list is found in the Gospel. As a result the Bible needs a visible authority outside of itself to list the inspired sacred Books. This authority must be guided by the Holy Spirit since these Books are from the Holy Spirit.
Some Christians claim that the Table of Contents in their Bible lists the inspired Books. Even though found in modern Bibles, the Table of Contents is still not inspired. It is not the Word of God but words added later by human editors, much similar to footnotes. The Table of Contents is basically the opinion of the publishing editor. Others may claim that the closing verses in the Book of Revelation, specifically Rev. 22:18-19, cap off the Bible and define all the preceding Books as inspired by God. But do these verses apply to the whole Bible or only the Book of Revelation? Another flaw with this idea is that not all Bibles have the same number of Books. As alluded to above, Catholic and Protestant Bibles contain different numbers of OT Books, yet all these Bibles close with the same verses: Rev. 22:18ff. Both cannot be right. Finally the Book of Deuteronomy contains similar verses (4:2 & 12:32). Does this imply that the Books after Deuteronomy are not inspired by God? No.
A third problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is proper understanding of critical Bible passages. Most Protestant Christians promote personal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. anyone can interpret these passages by himself. Unfortunately this leads to chaos. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Sadly the "Yellow Pages" phone directory is a witness to the many "Bible-Based" churches who disagree with each other over key issues of the Christian faith. Personal interpretation of the Bible naturally leads to a mire of human doctrines as a result of differing personal opinions.
The Bible was not written as a catechism. It is a collection of many different styles of writing - poetry, history, parables, letters, songs, etc. - requiring different ways of understanding. Sometimes Jesus in the Gospel purposely taught in figurative language and parables, which makes literal interpretation impossible. Even St. Peter admits that St. Paul's Epistles can be difficult to understand:
...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]
Finally the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30ff needed St. Philip to explain the Book of Isaiah. Obviously not everyone can understand the meaning of Scripture by simply reading it. More is required. These difficulties in the Bible demand an independent visible teaching authority that is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Even the Bible points to the importance of the Church for teaching the Truth. According to St. Peter in the Bible:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]
At least prophecies in the Bible are not a matter of personal interpretation. These prophesies must be properly interpreted by "men moved by the Holy Spirit" since the Holy Spirit is the Author. These "men" are the Bishops of the Church - the successors to the Apostles (Acts 20:28-32). Finally the Bible does not call itself the bulwark of the truth; however, St. Paul does make reference to the Church in those terms:
...the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]
According to the Bible, the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
All Christians, including Catholics, should read the Bible in order to grow more in the faith; however, we still need the Church. The Church is needed to accurately pass on Apostolic Tradition (Romans 10:17), define the canon of the Bible (i.e. list the inspired Books), safeguard the accurate transmission (e.g. translations) of the Bible and interpret key passages, all with guidance from the Holy Spirit according to God's Will. The Church is needed for other reasons too. It must be understood that the Church is not merely men making arbitrary decisions but men executing authority from God guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church may at times be tested by scandals or scarred by the sins of men. We may sometimes disagree with the policies of the Church, but she is still the instrument of the Holy Spirit. This visible Church is the one built by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, the rock (Matt. 16:18-19; John 1:24). This is the Catholic Church.
Sufficient faith to get the job done, to meet the challenge at hand.
I haven’t felt compelled in my spirit to even ask for or try faith to walk on water yet.
It could come in due course.
I’ve seen God answer my mother’s prayer and it rained on 4 sides of drying hay but not on that hay field.
And another time, a twister was bringing tin roofing material up to our mud hut and God stopped it . . . one could dra line . . . the tin stopped all jumbled except for the virtually straight line gap of about 1.5-2” on two sides of the house. I remember as a kid checking it because I didn’t believe my mother. She was right.
Another time, Step-Dad wasn’t a Christian yet, but he agreed to pray that if God wanted us to go into the dairy business, fine, no buyer for the cows. If it was not good to go into the dairy business that he’d have a buyer for the cows by Monday evening, I think it was. This was Saturday.
The next morning before church there was a buyer at the door who even wanted our family cow.
In the next few months, the price of milk went down and the price of hay went up. We’d have literally lost the farm.
God is there . . . where the rubber meets the road . . .
WHEN folks take Him at His Word, put Him first, and trust Him.
Given the stakes . . .
I’d think that
EVEN
PSEUDO-SUPER-RATIONALISM
would dictate that risking disbelief in eternal life would be too hazardous to even contemplate, much less risk.
I guess lots of pseudo-super-rationalists aren’t real great at risk assessment.
Kind of like the stupidity of ranting arrogantly against Almighty God! LOL.
That was putting it poorly.
God has no need of faith. For Him it’s all a certainty.
However, He IS a great provider of faith for those who ask.
There can be some interesting training sessions involved, however.
I give references.
You noted that those not fulfilling God’s requirement in said contingency would be condemned
The Bible confirms that.
as though said condemnation was somehow unfitting, unfair.
Dashing little ones to pieces is fair and just?
That implies the God behind [sic] said condemnation was unfair
I have no clue what that means.
I’m sure you can weasel about in terms of what was explicitly said
He said to dash someone's children to pieces and rape someone's wives. In those words.
Yet, you are plenty smart to know what the implications were of what you knowingly wrote and wrote for what purpose.
I know what is written, and what is written is attributed to God. Do you believe that dashing childrenn to pieces and raping women is fair?
It’s amazing that you can post so much and pretend and deny the clear implications of so many words so brazenly and glibly
It's amazing that you can write so many paragraphs and say nothing of substance, not a single refreence, not a single fact, just disdainful opinions.
Irrelevant to my question. You said you had sufficient faith (and didn't need to test it by attempting to walk on water) and I asked you "how do you know you have sufficient faith?". Do you mind answering the question (boy that would be the first!) instead of deflecting it?
Sounds like you’re twisting what I wrote.
In any case, I’m rushing off to church . . . tonight’s about prophetic giftings etc.
Cheers.
So, it seems your are suggesting we should believe out of fear? Fear of what? God who loved the world so much...?
Sounds like you are avoiding the question.
You constantly amaze me with your wisdom that is so clearly Holy Spirit anointed at times - like this one, for example. Thank you for these inspiring treats!
Beautifully said. Our Heavenly Father is indeed loving, faithful and merciful. His chastening and discipline proves this even more than his blessings!
This Creator, God, Father sets up the rules because he made everything there is. He says how he wants us to come to him, and it's by faith. We can wail and moan and stomp our feet, but it doesn't matter, he MAKES THE RULES. I guess, like Quix said, we come to him in humility, as little kids, with nothing but our belief to offer and our ABBA (Daddy) picks us up and carries us the rest of the way. Thank you, Daddy!
I know what is written, and what is written is attributed to God. Do you believe that dashing childrenn to pieces and raping women is fair?
Are you referring to 2 Kings 8 when you ask if God is fair to tell people to smash babies and rape women? You may want to read that chapter and see the context. It is NOT God telling anybody to do these things at all. Or perhaps you mean Isaiah 13? Wrong again. Where are the passages you "know what is written"? I may have missed them in earlier posts.
You want me to pretend that someone is out there while I am talking to the air? Just because you say there is? You still diond't answer my simple question.
And certainly, the ones who were not in Israel’s family resented them and still do, irrationally so.
Why was it "irrational?"
So it is not surprising that those who are not Christian resent Christians.
Perhaps because Christians did something to them? Or do you think that's also "irrational?"
Taking Scripture altogether, that God’s blessings and judgments run along family lines should not be missed.
Your brand of "Christianity" seems exclusivist. Unlike Judaism, Christianity believes God loves the world, not just one group of people. Maybe you should consider converting...
I discern this in Luke 15, especially the parable of the Prodigal Son...He will never get his inheritance back, but he is well tended and can build treasures of his own.
The Prodigal Son teaches that one can be selfish, wasteful and irresponsible, then come back say "I am sorry" and be rewarded. It also teaches that those who do as they are supposed to (the other brother) get the shaft. Some lesson...
A review of the history of Israel, and the individual stories of David, etc. - shows this as well – tough love when we need it, gentle love when we need it.
Oh sure, the story of David says you can commit murder and adultery and God will kill your child, and have your wives raped by the neighbor. But after that, he will love you gently. Are you sure you read the whole story?
Thank you so very much for your insights, dearest sister in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!
You humble me wonderously by your kind words.
God is Good.
Blessed be the Name, Word and Ways of The Lord.
I confess . . . sometimes, when done, I have to go back and read them . . . with my mouth open . . . learning, I think, as much or more than anyone.
No I was referring to Isa 13:16.
Wrong again.
Really? Care to elaborate?
Why not test it by attempting to walk on water, as the Bible syas?
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. - Mark 11:24-26
To God be the glory, not man, never man!
Not at all ignoring your irrational postulations.
Thankfully, you and your posts are FAR from the highest priority in my life . . . as disappointing as that may be to you.
I hope to get to them by Friday evening . . . assuming other priorities don’t intervene.
I want to respond to some of them because the lurkers deserve better treatment of those issues.
You can pronounce whatever nonsense about that you wish.
Thankfully, God and others know the truth.
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