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To: Mr Rogers; Cronos
Free will as we have been discussing it does NOT require full knowledge.

Sorry, but by definition free will must require full knowledge or it can't be free. You can't make a choice for heaven or hell based upon flawed information and still expect it to be "free" will.

We are ALL saying God must reveal himself to us, and that he does so in varying degrees.

God does not reveal himself to us in varying degrees. He has revealed Himself to everyone. It's just that everyone chooses to reject Him.

But ALL men have enough for them to be responsible for their choice,

Now we moved from God giving man faith (which seems to be rejected), God and man working together in partnership with faith, to men being responsible for their choice. See where this leads?

The debate is if God seeks a few irresistibly, because he loves them, and irresistibly damns all the others, because he hates them, all to show off his power to his glory.

God doesn't damn anyone. People are damned by their rebellion to God. The question is why God doesn't save everyone? No one knows except to say that we would not know mercy and grace if all we knew was justice.

Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Also true words.

7,748 posted on 01/31/2010 4:20:39 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Cronos

“Sorry, but by definition free will must require full knowledge or it can’t be free.”

No, it doesn’t. You make choices daily without perfect knowledge, but those choices are freely made - without compulsion from a more powerful being who refuses to give you choice.

Unless you are using a definition that Cronos & the rest of us, including Arminius, are not. And if you are doing that, you are arguing with yourself.

“God does not reveal himself to us in varying degrees.”

Really. We all have equal knowledge of who God is and how he would have us live? So someone with a dozen Bibles in his living room has no more explicit revelation from God than does someone living in a small tribe in the deep Amazon? Why do you suppose that children of believers are far more likely to believe than children of non-believers?

But it is good to know. Please tell the Wycliffe Translators to stop their work and relax! Dang, and I’ve been giving to missions for nearly 40 years...

“Now we moved from God giving man faith (which seems to be rejected), God and man working together in partnership with faith, to men being responsible for their choice. See where this leads?”

I don’t know where you are moving, but I’m pretty stationary. From the first, I’ve said that God gives man varying degrees of revelation, and that man is responsible for what he does with the revelation God has given. Those who believe will be given more, and those who refuse may lose what they have. But we are responsible for our choices.

And if we choose to believe, that is faith - one person’s trust in another person’s actions. If we choose to reject, it becomes damnation instead. “He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.” - John 3

HD “God doesn’t damn anyone. People are damned by their rebellion to God.”

Actually, God will damn them for their unbelief - indeed, they are damned already, unless they repent.

“The question is why God doesn’t save everyone?”

Because not everyone believes, and that is the condition God set.

“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. / Also true words.”

True words, but often taken out of context. It is a quote from Malachi, not Genesis, and refers to their descendants as heirs of the promise to Abraham, not individual salvation for Jacob, Esau, or anyone else. That is why that verse is quoted in Romans 9-11, concerning why the Chosen People have rejected Christ, and what will be their fate.


7,752 posted on 01/31/2010 4:38:58 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: HarleyD; Mr Rogers; Cronos
You can't make a choice for heaven or hell based upon flawed information and still expect it to be "free" will.

Why not? We make decisions all the time without full knowledge. I had some blueberries with breakfast. They looked nice and juicy so I ate them. They were quite unsweet, not how I like my berries. I should of had strawberries! And when we are talking about eternal matters, God very clearly says he will reveal the truth to those who seek him.

The God I believe in is so all-knowing that he is able to know an outcome before he actually puts the action into place. He even knows all the "what ifs". I imagine that in heaven he may share with us the life we could of had if only we had trusted him more. No scripture for that concept, just something I think about.

7,754 posted on 01/31/2010 4:57:24 PM PST by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: HarleyD; Mr Rogers
Sorry, but by definition free will must require full knowledge or it can't be free. You can't make a choice for heaven or hell based upon flawed information and still expect it to be "free" will.

Yes. Our kids have free will, yet a toddler will go and walk into a table and hurt herself. Yet they do have free will -- they don't have judgement or knowledge but they do have free will.
7,804 posted on 01/31/2010 9:06:07 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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