Replies

[from Warfield:] "...(”To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God.”)...

This author seems to confuse control of creation with the free will of man in my opinion.

I don't see how since the very will of man itself, and to whatever degree it is free (and whenever that is), is part of God's creation. God is in control of all of it.

I say this because God created us “in His image and likeness”...and “breathed into us “the breath of life”...”and man became a living being” We are a reflection of Him, set above all His creation works, the animals, the ground(earth) etc. With this the ability to communicate with Him, not by instinct as with animals but with a mind to reason, and think, and determine in order to make choices...”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not. (I will choose this or that, or I’ll not choose this or that.)

Yes, but did God bail at that point? :) Did God create man with a will and then just walk away, or is God active in the happenings in the world? If we agree that God is active, then we have to decide if the will God gave us is capable of being outside of God's control. Warfield is saying that if it is, then God can no longer be God because God would have created something more powerful than Himself. Humans can certainly do that with bombs, etc., but the Biblical God cannot. God cannot say "OH MY SELF - I've created a monster, I can't control it!" :)

Further, Warfield is saying that not only CAN God control us, but that He WILL control us. For if He did not, if He gave away what He alone made, then He could no longer claim that this is HIS universe, etc. It would be some other universe held together by something other than God. Therefore, if God really turned over His control to us, then that would nullify Christianity because the God of the Bible would then not exist.

Further...I certainly do not think of control when I think of God, let alone that I would think there is no God if I’m not controlled. That just seems a senseless statement.

Well, it is probably true that we do not experience God's control in the same way a two-year-old experiences being controlled by a parent, but the truth is that God's control is FAR broader than even that. :) When I think of God's control over me I think of how much He loves me, and how much He is going to take care of me and teach me and keep me from harm. I want all of those things, and if God REALLY does know best then maybe we all should. :)

"If we agree that God is active, then we have to decide if the will God gave us is capable of being outside of God's control. Warfield is saying that if it is, then God can no longer be God because God would have created something more powerful than Himself."

Then Warfield has the brains of a doorknob.

If I allow Mia (Arabian mare) to make choices about what route to take, or to end a session of riding because her heart isn't in it that day, does that make Mia my rider?

If God gives us a choice about obeying him, or about responding to his invitation to dance, that is still God's business and his sovereign will.

"Further, Warfield is saying that not only CAN God control us, but that He WILL control us. For if He did not, if He gave away what He alone made, then He could no longer claim that this is HIS universe, etc."

OK, maybe Warfield doesn't even have the brains of a doorknob. If God doesn't force us to do every little thing, if God doesn't force us to commit sin, then God is not in control of the universe?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had General Officers tell me to do whatever I though was best - but you can be DARN sure neither they nor I thought that put me in control.

"When I think of God's control over me I think of how much He loves me, and how much He is going to take care of me and teach me and keep me from harm."

True words and sentiment. "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Thank God! I don't want to be in control of my life. However, if I am to become a son, then I need to make some decisions - and God will decide how loose to hold the reins!

Now - completely off topic - prayer request. My daughter-in-law recently learned she is pregnant. She has been vomiting from time to time. Tonight she called, saying my son is trying to prevent her from eating odd things "because it will make you sick"!

Please pray their marriage survives...mine was on the rocks when my wife started pulling the pepperoni off of my slice of pizza while it was in mid-air! Then there were the bowls of pickles & ice cream...yech!

Last but not least, gratuitous horse picture...Mia thinking she's the Boss:

Again.......”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not. (I will choose this or that, or I’ll not choose this or that.)

(...Yes, but did God bail at that point? :) Did God create man with a will and then just walk away?”...

Of course he didn’t walk away....doesn’t the volume of scriptures which follow this event attest to you of that?Of course they do.

We have His Spirit within us and I for one can tell oftentimes if I’m heading in the wrong direction..it’s a sensitivity to his lead as we walk with him. He may use scripture that floods your mind, a simple warning of a cars horn when crossing the street. etc. Although I do think He does a great deal of preventive care fo us as we grow and develope in Him. Just as parents instruct and guard their children.

Look at a toddler who is walking with his parents at a mall sometime...he wanders off but generally he will keep looking back to see the face of his parent. We do that with God as well...look even at Peter who walked at a distance from Christ for a time...We do that as well as we explore the life He has given us and walk with Him in it.

Now a child may get really excited about something and race toward that without thinking or knowing of the danger ahead,the parent rushes and recues him from that danger or removes the danger. I think God does that for us but we are making decisions of the will as we go.

As the child grows and learns the differencees of life..that which is good or evil..and how to make good choices, though the dangers are still the same, he has developed the wisdom God has promised. So do we.

We learn thru a lifetime and much of it is by and from the decisions we make. I believe God is pleased with us when we make good choices, choosing His ways over the ways of the world...and yes even over the nature within we battle with. By the same token we can trust Him to guide us when life seems to be overwhelming.

We forget that oftentimes as we struggle to make the right decisions on the big things of life,.... the very struggle itself is evidence God is calibrating our decisions as we go.

I sincerely believe as Christians who love and know the Lord...that we cannot wander too far because we would miss Him too much...we return just as the prodical did and find He was waiting for us the whole time. But we did choose to return.

Did God create man with a will and then just walk away, or is God active in the happenings in the world? If we agree that God is active, then we have to decide if the will God gave us is capable of being outside of God's control. Warfield is saying that if it is, then God can no longer be God because God would have created something more powerful than Himself

Amen! Nutshell time.

[from Warfield:] "...(”To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God.”)...

That's a wrong argument. No creature has "escaped" from God's control, because free will is not "escape". If God wants to come tomorrow and make us all, including Satan etc just robotons, HE can. HE has that power, undeniably. But HE has given us the free will to choose not to accept Him.

It's like the difference between a parent that ties a child down and controls their very thoughts as opposed to a parent that directs a child, teaches a child, puts up safety nets, but allows the child to grow. That, latter, loving parent is God.