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To: blue-duncan; Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; betty boop
This verse, then, indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices

God deliberating must necessarily involve His omniscience.

So, while the "actions" of "God's creatures" do not "determine" His decisions, that does not mean those actions are not "involved" in the deliberation that precedes His decisions.

Foreknowledge prior to creation, and then creating anyway, IS IS IS, predestining.

6,839 posted on 01/28/2010 10:54:57 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
Foreknowledge prior to creation, and then creating anyway, IS IS IS, predestining.

This is a very common error of logic, this conflation of foreknowledge with predestination.

6,840 posted on 01/28/2010 10:59:11 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: xzins
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
6,846 posted on 01/28/2010 11:08:26 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: xzins; Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; betty boop

“So, while the “actions” of “God’s creatures” do not “determine” His decisions that does not mean those actions are not “involved” in the deliberation that precedes His decisions.”

But then God’s plans would be hostage to the whims of un-caused free will.

God chooses after deliberating on the wisest course of action to accomplish his purpose. Given un-caused free will, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out. No matter how much God inclines someone’s will toward what he has chosen, such inclination, on an un-caused account of free will, can never be sufficient to produce God’s decreed action. If non-caused free will is correct, God cannot guarantee that he knows what will happen, for anyone could always do otherwise than he expects one to do.

Eph. 1:11 indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices. God deliberates, chooses and accomplishes all things on the basis of his purposes. He accomplishes some things through the agency of others (humans, angels and so on) or second causes but they do not determine his plan.


6,855 posted on 01/28/2010 12:06:50 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: xzins; blue-duncan; Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; betty boop; HarleyD; wmfights; RnMomof7; ...
So, while the "actions" of "God's creatures" do not "determine" His decisions, that does not mean those actions are not "involved" in the deliberation that precedes His decisions. Foreknowledge prior to creation, and then creating anyway, IS IS IS, predestining.

Ain't. Ain't. Ain't.

First, there is no period of "deliberation" by God because that would imply there is a moment when God does not know the future, does not ordain the future and/or does not have control of the future. All of which denies the omniscience of God.

Second, the doctrine of election is grounded by the reality of total depravity (total inability.) Unless and until God regenerates the fallen sinner from a natural man to a spiritual man that man will remain lost and condemned in his sins.

So unless and until God acts decisively and personally by giving the free gift of the Holy Spirit, according to God's own purpose, determined from before the foundation of the world, no man can or will choose righteousness.

Therefore it's God who determines which fallen men, all equally fallen and lost in trespass, will receive His grace through saving faith in his Son's work on the cross.

Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with "foreseen" anything. If it did, men would have reason to boast because of what they've done. And so salvation would be according to debt and not free mercy.

Most of us grew up being taught some version of Arminianism. It's the natural inclination of men to want to take credit. Name above the title. But God names his family; we don't. And He names them according to His good pleasure and not as payback for something "good" they freely choose to do.

What could be more clear than 1 Corin. 4:7 and Romans 9:11?

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corin. 4:7


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11

Who makes us different from one another? How can a man who is born to a comfortable, American family with love and education and opportunity possibly say he has the same "free will choice to believe" as the wretchedly poor, unloved orphan who's raised on the streets and steals to feed himself?

God made us to differ. And God gives us everything we have, including a repentant heart, a renewed mind, a family, circumstances, disposition, opportunity and a saving faith.

So while God can choose the unfortunate orphan to bring to faith and leave the fortunate son of privilege in his sins, we surely can't be so naive as to think God has treated us equally or made the path to faith the same for all. At its heart, Arminianism is glorification of self and a denial of the real world we live in.

All men are fallen and none, rich or poor, seeks His face unless He first reveals Himself to them. His call alone.

And the man to whom God reveals His Son will be brought to saving faith because God does not lack for anything, and the Holy Spirit does not fail, not ever, if the Trinity is true.

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." -- Luke 10:22

6,870 posted on 01/28/2010 1:46:49 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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