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To: Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg

“Whoever believes. Not whoever is on my list”

Ephesians 1:11 is perhaps the clearest expression of the concept of the sovereignty of God, though there are other verses that teach the sovereignty of God (Ps 115:3; Prov 16:9, 33; Dan 4:34-35). In verse 11 Paul continues the theme of God’s predestining us in Christ for salvation. Paul says that such a marking off of the believer beforehand was done “according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will.” The clause beginning with “who” is a relative clause modifying him. According to this verse, believers are predestined to salvation in accord with the purpose of God, and God does all things, including predestining to salvation, according to the counsel of his will. The clause, then, broadens the scope of the verse to speak of God’s sovereign control not only over election to salvation, but over all else.

As to the phrase according to the counsel of his will, the distinction between “counsel” and “will” is that the former involves purpose and deliberation while the latter simply denotes willing. The basic thrust of the phrase is that God chooses after deliberating on the wisest course of action to accomplish his purpose. Thus, this verse refers to a plan resulting from deliberation. This verse, then, indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices. God deliberates, chooses and accomplishes all things on the basis of his purposes. How does God accomplish all things? Some are done directly and exclusively by God without use of other agents, but most are accomplished through the agency of others (humans, angels, donkeys, etc.).

Clearly, this verse teaches the absolute sovereignty of God. Just as clearly, with such a notion of sovereignty, there is no room for indeterministic freedom. Given indeterministic freedom, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out. No matter how much God inclines someone’s will toward what he has chosen, such inclination, on an indeterministic account of freedom, can never be sufficient to produce God’s decreed action. Given indeterminism, there is no way for God to be in control of the world as outlined in Ephesians 1:11


6,736 posted on 01/27/2010 11:05:55 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Mr Rogers
Amen!!! I searched for a few sentences to repeat in this post, but they were all perfect - a clear, Scriptural understanding of why what is.

It's a pity so many Christians miss this merciful awareness of who they actually are in God's universe - set apart from "before they could choose to do anything good or evil;" then "made acceptable" to God by Christ for His glory alone.

Thus there is no boasting. There is only "there but for the grace of God go I." Without Him.

6,742 posted on 01/27/2010 11:42:14 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg

None of the discussion involves the question, “Is God sovereign?” God in His sovereign will could decide to save a list of names. God, in His sovereign will, could decide to save those who believe. If I decide to give my horse a choice, it is MY decision to do so.

BD “According to this verse, believers are predestined to salvation in accord with the purpose of God, and God does all things, including predestining to salvation, according to the counsel of his will.”

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” - ESV, not NIV

Yes. Salvation takes place IAW the purpose of God, according to the counsel of his will. What is predestination, in scripture?

Since it is mentioned 6 times in 6 verses, let’s look at them all...in the ESV:

Act 4:28 “to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1Cr 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

And 1 Cor 2:7 seems to be explained by verses 9-10:

“But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.”

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

So we have “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

“he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ”

“we have obtained an inheritance”

“what God has prepared for those who love him”

I think Romans 8 summarizes what predestination means pretty well - to be conformed to Jesus as a son of God. That is our end - our destination. We ARE pre-destination-ed.

But does God in his sovereign will and to fulfill his purpose, pick those people off a list, or does he chose to take those who believe?

Well, hundreds of verses say believe. What must I do to be saved?

“31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.” - Acts 16

Not, ‘How dare you deny the sovereignty of God! He and He alone will decide if He will save you...you just wait and see!’

Not, ‘If God saves you, you will believe’.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

I don’t know how God can make it any clearer than that. Nor do I know why Calvin wants to order God to do it differently. God “accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will” - His will, not Calvin’s. And he has repeated himself hundreds of times: Repent! Believe! Your faith has healed you!

BD “Just as clearly, with such a notion of sovereignty, there is no room for indeterministic freedom. Given indeterministic freedom, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out.”

I don’t know what indeterministic freedom means, but I know what God has said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

THAT is God’s will. As it says in the passage of Ephesians you quoted, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

When you heard the word of truth, the gospel

and believed in him

you were sealed with the Holy Spirit

who guarantees our inheritance

to the praise of God’s glory.


6,746 posted on 01/27/2010 11:57:11 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: blue-duncan; Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg
Just as clearly, with such a notion of sovereignty, there is no room for indeterministic freedom. Given indeterministic freedom, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out. No matter how much God inclines someone’s will toward what he has chosen, such inclination, on an indeterministic account of freedom, can never be sufficient to produce God’s decreed action. Given indeterminism, there is no way for God to be in control of the world as outlined in Ephesians 1:11

I am just NOT seeing such a big deal about how God's sovereignty, foreknowledge and omniscience is threatened at all by his giving us the freedom to accept or reject him. He is able to work all things together for good for his children. Ephesians 3:20 says he is able to "do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us". Above what we ask or think seems to imply that we CAN ask for more strength, grace and faith for our Christian walk.

6,765 posted on 01/27/2010 2:44:18 PM PST by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: blue-duncan; Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; betty boop
This verse, then, indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices

God deliberating must necessarily involve His omniscience.

So, while the "actions" of "God's creatures" do not "determine" His decisions, that does not mean those actions are not "involved" in the deliberation that precedes His decisions.

Foreknowledge prior to creation, and then creating anyway, IS IS IS, predestining.

6,839 posted on 01/28/2010 10:54:57 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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