Mr. R-Well, according to scripture, we ARE sons of God, yet we DO disobey...so either we disobey because we can
What you are saying is that God opens everyone's eyes and heart and can accept or reject God at that point by making a decision. I'm saying that is not found in scripture nor is that what the complete word of God teaches. You will not find the gospel of John saying that.
That is why we pray for the salvation of others. God must bring them to repentance, acceptance, and submission. We pray for others that God will save them all the while submitting to the knowledge that His will and saving grace are perfect.
People cannot change this fact. They may hand out tracts or stand on street corners preaching until their blue in the face, but unless God moves to change that heart nothing will happen. It doesn't mean that God does not want us to do these things. It simply means that the reason someone comes to Christ is because of God the Father. And for that, all the angels rejoice.
That is why every Christian no matter their persuasion will tell you that "God saved me." as someone here mentioned. Deep down, every Christian knows this fact and is the cause of our praise to God.
*(One could say we have faith and then repent but that's another discussion.)
Bump!
What you are saying is that God opens everyone's eyes and heart and can accept or reject God at that point by making a decision. I'm saying that is not found in scripture nor is that what the complete word of God teaches. You will not find the gospel of John saying that.
Amen. Beautiful post, Harley. What do we have that we have not been given? (1 Cor. 4:7.)
That is why every Christian no matter their persuasion will tell you that "God saved me." as someone here mentioned. Deep down, every Christian knows this fact and is the cause of our praise to God.
God willing they know that. But those of the "I chose correctly" persuasion do not have the same security as someone who knows God chose them for nothing yet in them, and that all God's choices are "correct" because He will make them so.
Deep down the free will believer has the uncertainty of "...saved if I can just hold on to my faith."
The Calvinist believes men who have been given God's grace to believe will hold on to their faith and believe unto the end.
It makes a world of difference in this life.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." -- John 6:37
From John Murray...
"...In concluding, may we return to John 6:37, 44, 65. When a sinner comes to Christ in the commitment of faith, when the rebellious will is renewed and tears of penitence begin to flow, it is because a mysterious transaction has been taking place between the persons of the Godhead. The Father has been making a presentation, a donation to his own Son. So perish the thought that coming to Christ finds its explanation in the autonomous determinations of the human will. It finds its cause in the sovereign will of God the Father. He has placed upon this person the constraint by which he has been captivated by the glory of the Redeemer and invests in him all his interests. Christ is made wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Here is grace surpassing; and it is grace insurmountable."
HD “My point is do we, as Christians, WANT to be disobedient-as least if our attitude is right.”
The point of the new birth is that we are born to something different. THAT is what election and predestination is about: those who believe are predestined to become conformed to the Son (Romans 8), not predestined as a list of names to justification.
I wrote: “However, I can find no scriptural basis for thinking we are born again by act of God prior to believing.”
HD: “I was trying to point out that a person cannot be born again unless God opens their eyes and heart to repentance.”
Arminius and I agree. The Remonstrant Articles:
Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”
http://www.baptistlife.com/flick/remonstrance.htm, tip from monergism.com.
HD “What you are saying is that God opens everyone’s eyes and heart and can accept or reject God at that point by making a decision.”
Not quite. “19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” - Romans 1
Men have enough about God revealed to them BY God that they have no excuse. That is not the same as saying every person receives the Gospel explicitly, and Paul agrees:
“12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” - Romans 2
And for those with more explicit revelation, it isn’t always pleasant: “14And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.” - Matt 10
Those who have the Gospel handed to them on a platter, yet reject it, will find them worse off “on the day of judgment [than] the land of Sodom and Gomorrah”.
HD: “It is simply because they are not our Lord’s sheep. Joh 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” Our Lord could have said, “You are not My sheep because you do not believe.” but that isn’t what He states. They don’t believe because they are not His sheep.”
I think you are reading in a sequence that isn’t there. When Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”, did he mean be baptized because of your forgiveness, or to obtain forgiveness. I’ve read the word can mean either, although I don’t know...still need to buy a good lexicon.
But I think Jesus is equating not believing and not being his sheep, not saying ownership comes first.
When did Jesus heal someone? When did the Great Physician HEAL?
Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
Luk 17:19 And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”
Act 14:9 He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well,
I think that is a type of our salvation. I assume others disagree. Or, in one verse, “Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God”. You don’t give someone the right for something they already have. Believing and receiving are one...arguably, at least.
HD: “People cannot change this fact. They may hand out tracts or stand on street corners preaching until their blue in the face, but unless God moves to change that heart nothing will happen.”
Yes, and no. Arminius agreed that no one can come to God apart from God’s revelation and His grace. That isn’t in doubt. But if we prefer to insult and offend for the joy of doing so, then we disobey Paul’s example:
“19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor 9
A small sample of scripture:
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Act 9:42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord.
Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Something happened, and THEN someone believed. I’ve been looking for a place where it says God gives belief as a gift to those who are unbelieving, or gives faith as a gift. Do you have any?