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To: Forest Keeper
...(”To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God.”)...

This author seems to confuse control of creation with the free will of man in my opinion. I say this because God created us “in His image and likeness”...and “breathed into us “the breath of life”...”and man became a living being”

We are a reflection of Him, set above all His creation works, the animals, the ground(earth) etc. With this the ability to communicate with Him, not by instinct as with animals but with a mind to reason, and think, and determine in order to make choices...”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not.
(I will choose this or that, or I’ll not choose this or that.)

This then seperates us from the creation/universe.

Further...I certainly do not think of control when I think of God, let alone that I would think there is no God if I’m not controlled. That just seems a senseless statement.

6,003 posted on 01/23/2010 12:06:59 AM PST by caww
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To: caww; Forest Keeper
Either God is in control or men are in control. And I sure hope it's the former.

Since you're up late you might want to read a nifty little piece by the theologian, Cornelius Van Til...

WHY I BELIEVE IN GOD

6,009 posted on 01/23/2010 12:24:15 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: caww; Forest Keeper
We are a reflection of Him, set above all His creation works, the animals, the ground(earth) etc. With this the ability to communicate with Him, not by instinct as with animals but with a mind to reason, and think, and determine in order to make choices...”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not.

Wonderful point, but after eating from the tree didn't we become slaves to sin in our fallen state?

6,071 posted on 01/23/2010 8:12:40 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: caww; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; Mr Rogers; MarkBsnr
[from Warfield:] "...(”To imagine that we are not controlled is to imagine that there is no God. For when we say God, we say control. If a single creature which God has made has escaped beyond his control, at the moment that he has done so he has abolished God. A God who could or would make a creature whom he could not or would not control, is no God. The moment he should make such a creature he would, of course, abdicate his throne. The universe he had created would have ceased to be his universe; or rather it would cease to exist-for the universe is held together only by the control of God.”)...

This author seems to confuse control of creation with the free will of man in my opinion.

I don't see how since the very will of man itself, and to whatever degree it is free (and whenever that is), is part of God's creation. God is in control of all of it.

I say this because God created us “in His image and likeness”...and “breathed into us “the breath of life”...”and man became a living being” We are a reflection of Him, set above all His creation works, the animals, the ground(earth) etc. With this the ability to communicate with Him, not by instinct as with animals but with a mind to reason, and think, and determine in order to make choices...”to eat of the tree of life”...or....”the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Which was a choice...a matter of ones will or will not. (I will choose this or that, or I’ll not choose this or that.)

Yes, but did God bail at that point? :) Did God create man with a will and then just walk away, or is God active in the happenings in the world? If we agree that God is active, then we have to decide if the will God gave us is capable of being outside of God's control. Warfield is saying that if it is, then God can no longer be God because God would have created something more powerful than Himself. Humans can certainly do that with bombs, etc., but the Biblical God cannot. God cannot say "OH MY SELF - I've created a monster, I can't control it!" :)

Further, Warfield is saying that not only CAN God control us, but that He WILL control us. For if He did not, if He gave away what He alone made, then He could no longer claim that this is HIS universe, etc. It would be some other universe held together by something other than God. Therefore, if God really turned over His control to us, then that would nullify Christianity because the God of the Bible would then not exist.

Further...I certainly do not think of control when I think of God, let alone that I would think there is no God if I’m not controlled. That just seems a senseless statement.

Well, it is probably true that we do not experience God's control in the same way a two-year-old experiences being controlled by a parent, but the truth is that God's control is FAR broader than even that. :) When I think of God's control over me I think of how much He loves me, and how much He is going to take care of me and teach me and keep me from harm. I want all of those things, and if God REALLY does know best then maybe we all should. :)

6,879 posted on 01/28/2010 5:49:53 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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