Thanks for that remark, Mr. Rogers. As for me, I'd cast a wider net.
Doctrinally, I’m closer to you
I disagree.
I didn’t know much doctrine, but I knew I wanted to be with Jesus.
And that awareness is in itself a gift from God because you are as fallen and corrupted by a sin nature as I am and the guy next door who doesn't "want to be with Jesus."
God's Grace saves, from beginning to end, not our own prescience.
I have very strong disagreements with the Catholic Church. I am as appalled by Purgatory
But that's an easy one. Even Rome has started to hedge their bets on that one. Election is the core of salvation. God chooses, not men, as Scripture tells us over and over. Men think they have the final say, but even their ability to say "yes" comes first from God. And obviously not all men have that ability, for who would deny the truth of the Triune God if they had been given a new heart and new eyes and new ears and a renewed mind to truly know the things of God? The natural man does not know the things of God because they have not been revealed to him through God's word. The letters on the page are just ink, and not "spirit and life."
There really are only two religions -- synergism (I activated and authenticated my own salvation by my free will decision to believe) and monergism (God is the author and finisher of my faith, having ordained the end from the beginning.)
I choose carefully this day. And that ability to chose carefully comes from God alone and not our "free will" which has been forever corrupted by Adam's fall.
And I believe many of your posts are insulting (Romanist? How often have you been told that terminology is offensive?), intellectually dishonest (pictures taken from websites that are not accurate, and a reluctance on your part to admit the error after it is pointed out), arrogant (’special grace’ to ‘special’ people, I guess), and with a perspective that seems to me to define itself as ‘Not Catholic’ rather than ‘Protestant’.
1) If the truth "insults," so be it.
2) "Pictures that are not accurate?" No "picture" I've posted has been photo-shopped or is inauthentic. The pictures are what they are -- witness to RCC error. According to you, you can't see it, and call that witness "insulting." Your prerogative.
3) "Special grace?" You mean "saving grace" apart from the grace God gives all through welcome rain and sunshine and pansies? Yes, I believe God's perfect, purposeful saving grace saves completely, as ordained by Him from the foundation of the world. All who believe are saved. And all who believe do so because it is God's will that they believe.
4) "'Not Catholic' is not 'Protestant.'" Protestant is the faith of the Reformation, now perverted by Romanist influence to tell Protestants and Roman Catholics alike that they hold the key to their own salvation and that the deal is only complete when men's good sense and prudence permits them to choose well. And again, as Jesus tells us in John 15, "You have not chosen me; I have chosen you." You and Rome disagree with Christ's teaching. Protestants of the Reformation then and now understand differently, by the grace of God alone.
Now, as to the difference between Pink and Robertson...
PINK: ”As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.” Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God’s decree. Second, that a limited number only are “ordained to eternal life,” for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words “as many as” are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this “ordination” of God is not to mere external privileges but to “eternal life,” not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-”as many as,” not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.”
Amen. Let's contrast that with Robertson who most certainly does not understand and "believe in predestination," as you assert. That's an old papist trick - keep the bottle, change the wine. Thanks, but I prefer the new wine in a new bottle.
ROBERTSON: “As many as were ordained to eternal life...
lol. First of all, he doesn't even finish the sentence. What's he worried about? That someone might really understand the sentence?
ROBERTSON: “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better.
lol. Yeah. "Better" for the Arminian. "Ordained" really throws that old monkey wrench into the "me-ism" of the Arminian.
ROBERTSON: "...This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency."
It most certainly does "solve the vexed problem," as much as humanly possible to understand. "Divine sovereignty" first determines ("ordains") who believes, determines men's lives and sets men's boundaries and names men's children and gives men new eyes and new ears and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind in order that they believe. That's pretty darn simple. Read Ephesians 2. Faith is not of ourselves. It is a gift from God alone by His grace alone.
Here's a "better" understanding from Calvin's Commentary...
Therefore, let us hold and mark that which Luke saith, that those were ordained before unto life, who, being in-grafted into the body of Christ by faith, do receive the earnest and pledge of their adoption in Christ. Whence we do also gather what force the preaching of the gospel hath of itself. For it (preaching the Gospel) doth not find faith in men, save only because God doth call those inwardly whom he hath chosen, and because he draweth those who were his own before unto Christ, (John 6:37.) Also Luke teacheth in the same words, that it cannot be that any of the elect should perish. For he saith not that one or a few of the elect did believe, but so many as were elect. For though God’s election be unknown to us until we perceive it by faith, yet is it not doubtful or in suspense in his secret counsel; because he commendeth all those whom he counteth his to the safeguard and tuition of his Son, who will continue a faithful keeper even unto the end. Both members are necessary to be known. When election is placed above faith, there is no cause why men should challenge to themselves any thing in any part of their salvation. For if faith, wherein consisteth salvation, which is unto us a witness of the free adoption of God, which coupleth us to Christ, and maketh his life ours, whereby we possess God with his righteousness, and, finally, whereby we receive the grace of sanctification, be grounded without us in the eternal counsel of God; what good things so ever we have, we must needs acknowledge that we have received it of the grace of God, which doth prevent us of its own accord. Again, because many entangle themselves in doubtful and thorny imaginations, whilst that they seek for their salvation in the hidden counsel of God, let us learn that the election of God is therefore approved by faith, that our minds may be turned unto Christ as unto the pledge of election, and that they may seek no other certainty save that which is revealed to us in the gospel; I say, let this seal suffice us, that “whosoever believeth in the only-begotten Son of God hath eternal life,” (John 3:36.)And they believed. -- This is an exposition of the member next going before, at least in my judgment.: For Luke showeth what manner [of] glory they gave to the word of God. And here we must note the restraint, [reservation,] when he saith that they believed, (but) not all in general, but those who were ordained unto life. And we need not doubt but that Luke calleth those τεταγμενους, who were chosen by the free adoption of God. For it is a ridiculous cavil to refer this unto the affection of those which believed, as if those received the gospel whose minds were well-disposed. For this ordaining must be understood of the eternal counsel of God alone. Neither doth Luke say that they were ordained unto faith, but unto life; because the Lord doth predestinate his unto the inheritance of eternal life. And this place teacheth that faith dependeth upon God’s election. And assuredly, seeing that the whole race of mankind is blind and stubborn, those diseases stick fast in our nature until they be redressed by the grace of the Spirit, and that redressing floweth from the fountain of election alone. For in that of two which hear the same doctrine together, the one showeth himself apt to be taught, the other continueth in his obstinacy. It is not, therefore, because they differ by nature, but because God doth lighten [illumine] the former, and doth not vouchsafe the other the like grace. We are, indeed, made the children of God by faith; as faith, as touching us, is the gate and the first beginning of salvation; but there is a higher respect of God. For he doth not begin to choose us after that we believe; but he sealeth his adoption, which was hidden in our hearts, by the gift of faith, that it may be manifest and sure. For if this be proper to the children of God alone to be his disciples, it followeth that it doth not appertain unto all the children of Adam in general. No marvel, therefore, if all do not receive the gospel; because, though our heavenly Father inviteth all men unto the faith by the external voice of man, yet doth he not call effectually by his Spirit any save those whom he hath determined to save. Now, if God’s election, whereby he ordaineth us unto life, be the cause of faith and salvation, there remaineth nothing for worthiness or merits.
I have to thank you for posting Robertson to me which happily led me to posting and re-reading Calvin's beautiful two paragraphs concerning election. As God wills.
And thanks ever so much for the link to "Classical Arminianism." I'll file it with the RCC catechism and Ratzinger's "global encyclical."
MR. ROGERS: "And I would remind you that salvation has more than one meaning. It can mean justification, it can mean sanctification, or it can mean both."
Wow. That's so sad I'm going to post it again...bigger, and be sure I attribute it to the proper author...
MR. ROGERS: "And I would remind you that salvation has more than one meaning. It can mean justification, it can mean sanctification, or it can mean both."
Salvation has only one meaning...that men are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone for the glory of God alone, all made knowable to us through the authority of God's word alone.
“For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” - Romans 10
Yes, indeedy. And does God give a heart of flesh to all men, or only to those who are His?
Well. this about wraps it up for me. You've said you're retired so maybe that explains the long posts. I'm not. But I've certainly enjoyed this exercise, futile as it may well be.
ping to 4889.
Great post. And Rogers certainly doesn’t speak for this old Baptist. I suspect his Catholic pastor shares his views.
Except that NONE of the intellectually dishonset pictures come from Catholic websites (one is from a site that hates Catholics, one is from a photographer's website and one is from a Jewish psychic's website). There is NOTHING to suggest that any of them are authentic other than a person's desire to believe them.
The pictures are what they are -- witness to RCC error.
Only if they are true, something you have NEVER been able to establish.
You might recall that one of them was posted to bolster a claim that a certain quote could be found on "thousands" of Catholic websites, only later did we discover that the quote was actually a total fabrication.
Unless you took the photo yourself, you're not in a position to claim that. You cannot know.
“Let’s contrast that with Robertson who most certainly does not understand and “believe in predestination,” as you assert. That’s an old papist trick - keep the bottle, change the wine.”
Robertson supports predestination’s arguments on some other verses. He seems to me to be an honest broker, who tries to follow where the Greek text takes him.
And as usual, adding “papist” offends folks without need...as is the implication that Catholics are liars. Perhaps insulting people God died for - oh, wait, you think he didn’t die for anyone not on his list - is a way to make sure only those overwhelmed by God’s irresistible grace come...good job! It is a pity Paul didn’t understand this principle of evangelism.
“There really are only two religions — synergism (I activated and authenticated my own salvation by my free will decision to believe) and monergism (God is the author and finisher of my faith, having ordained the end from the beginning.)”
Then you should like Jacob Arminius. He taught:
“* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
* Salvation is possible only by God’s grace, which cannot be merited.
* No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.”
“I choose carefully this day. And that ability to chose carefully comes from God alone and not our “free will” which has been forever corrupted by Adam’s fall.”
Good! You’ve become an Arminian! You agree we have choice, and that the ability to choose is founded in God’s grace.
To find out more about your new beliefs, read about prevenient grace:
http://www.eternalsecurity.us/prevenient_grace.htm
You write: “Wow. That’s so sad I’m going to post it again...bigger, and be sure I attribute it to the proper author... / MR. ROGERS: “And I would remind you that salvation has more than one meaning. It can mean justification, it can mean sanctification, or it can mean both.”
Thanks for repeating it. It is true. I’m surprised it surprises anyone.
“Read Ephesians 2. Faith is not of ourselves. It is a gift from God alone by His grace alone.”
Actually, no. As Barnes puts it, “And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—\~touto\~—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—\~pistiv\~ —is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking.”
I’m still interested in what you think Jesus meant when He said:
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”