Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Mr Rogers; wmfights; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper
God would have all of us come to saving repentance, but our rejection of Him means we all will not.

And this is where we would disagree. Why exactly did God "chose" the nation of Israel? Why did He command the Israelites to march into Canaan and order the people to destroy them rather than preach to them? And why does God harden the hearts of the Jews:

Here is a case where God has hardened the heart of the Jews so that they will not come to repentance. So I would respectfully suggest that your premise is wrong. God can't possibly want all men to come to repentance because He has given some a spirit of stupor.

Free will - or the ability to choose evil, or accept God’s grace when offered - means there is good & there is evil, and God wants us to choose good, just as I want my son & daughters to do so.

I don't mean to be rude, but do you (or any of us) have the ability to choose between good and evil? Adam was a perfect man and yet he fell. Do you think that he fully understood the ramifications?

You won't find the concept of free will in scripture (there is one reference in somewhere of a "free will" offering I believe). Non-Christians do not seek after God. We know this from Romans 3:

That sums up our state before we come to know God.

After we know God, we are set free but free to do what? We are free to be lead by either God or our desires. We don't choose our paths but we are lead to our paths:

I have never argued that man is free to do as he pleases. That is NOT a free will argument, at least, not among Baptists.

Free will by definition means that man is capable of making decisions apart from God. That certainly does mean that he could make a decision that would please God or displease God's favor. It also means that man is free to do as he pleases.

You will find many of those who believe in "free will" have argued that God has given at least part of His sovereignty to man to make decisions. Stick around on this site and you'll see these arguments popping up. If one were to trace where this doctrine came from, they will find it came from the beginnings of the Renassiance when the focus became man-centered rather than God centered. This, of course, is a silly argument because if God were to give away some of His sovereignty, than He would no longer be God. Plus God doesn't trust men.

I'm sure your aware that there are many Baptists of all sorts of beliefs. I have attended a Baptist church for many, many years. I'm half Baptist-half Presbyterian. But I'm all Reformed. wmfights, blue-duncan and Forest Keeper are other great Reformed Baptists on this site. Charles Spurgeon was a great Reformed Baptist as well as Matthew Henry (although it doesn't come out in his commentary very well). Arthur Pink another. John Piper and John MacArthur are also great Reformed Baptists. And you'll find that Moyer, head of the Southern Baptist is Reformed. In fact, I can name more famous Reformed Baptists off the top of my head then I can any other.

My point is that there are Reformed Baptists and then there are non-Reformist. There are only two types of beliefs in the world. You either are a synergist (God and man working together for man's salvation) or you're a monergist (God working for man's salvation). For our friends, I would strongly recommend the writings of Free Will-A Slave by Charles Spurgeon (Reformed Baptist)

3,492 posted on 01/15/2010 6:14:05 PM PST by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3446 | View Replies ]


To: HarleyD; wmfights; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper

“God would have all of us come to saving repentance, but our rejection of Him means we all will not. / And this is where we would disagree.”

“3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2

For full context, see here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20tim%202&version=ESV

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” - 2 Peter 3

Context: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&version=ESV

“Why exactly did God “chose” the nation of Israel?”

To be a light to the world, and fulfill the promise to Abraham.

“”Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” - Gen 12

“7And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.” - Gen 17

“Why did He command the Israelites to march into Canaan and order the people to destroy them rather than preach to them?”

Sanctification - so the people he would bless the world thru would not be polluted and destroyed by the evil. Also, to punish the evil people living there, who had been storing up wrath for 400+ years.

“And why does God harden the hearts of the Jews:”

You take hardening the heart to mean changing it from positive (receptive) to negative (rejection). I take it to mean making manifest what was already there - the word in the Hebrew includes “to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore”, and in the Greek “1) to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus”.

Romans 11: “2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew...5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace...The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”...12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!...I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27”and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”...they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”

A callous forms where there is already irritation, from two things going in opposite directions. The callous dulls the pain, but the difference was already there.

As sometimes happens, different camps can read into this what they already believe. If you wish to interpret it that God takes someone who would repent, and prevents them, I cannot stop you. If I take it that God hardens what is already hard, and lets those who would not see go blind, you cannot stop me.

But since God has said, repeatedly and explicitly, that he DOES want all to come to repentance, I think my interpretation stays IAW scripture as a whole. When Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him”, I take “world” to mean world, not elect.

“I don’t mean to be rude, but do you (or any of us) have the ability to choose between good and evil?”

If not, then scripture sure has a lot of incorrect passages!

“Free will by definition means that man is capable of making decisions apart from God. That certainly does mean that he could make a decision that would please God or displease God’s favor. It also means that man is free to do as he pleases.”

Guess we are using different definitions.

“My point is that there are Reformed Baptists and then there are non-Reformist. There are only two types of beliefs in the world. You either are a synergist (God and man working together for man’s salvation) or you’re a monergist (God working for man’s salvation).”

There are General Baptists and Particular Baptists, to use an old phrase. And if a synergist takes the statement of Jesus at face value: “28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”, then I’m a synergist.

If a synergist thinks we merit God’s grace, or earn it by obedience and good deeds, then I’m a monergist.

You see, there are not only two beliefs in the world. I’ve stated many times now that no man can reach up to God, but that God seeks us and cross the chasm to meet us. The difference is between God inviting us to dance, or kidnapping us. When Jesus told unbelievers, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”, I take it to mean they refuse to come to Jesus, not that God blocks them from coming.

If that makes me a synergist, I am. But God seeks us out, and we are not looking for him, but are ‘surprised by God’...at least, I was. So I’m a monergist.

Or, to use John MacArthur’s analogy, Paul wrote Romans, and God wrote Romans. Both 100%. Deal with it. Jesus is man - 100%. Jesus is God - 100%. Deal with it.

We are saved by God’s grace and His alone, with nothing of ourselves. We repent or reject, and need to walk in the Spirit. Deal with it.

We are dancing, however. God does not kidnap, and scripture is quite explicit - God wants all to repent. All do not.


3,519 posted on 01/15/2010 7:14:00 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3492 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson