Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Exactly...How do you guys not understand this???
If it is our free will in the end some still choose evil and some choose salvation. What is it that causes those choices? I believe it comes from God.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;...
Prov.21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water, He turns it wherever He wishes.
While we may perceive we are making choices (free will) the deck has been stacked to the point where the decision really is not in doubt. We are never the equal of God. The highest we rise to is being children of God. As a father I'm sure you allow your children a lot of freedom to make choices, but especially when they are young, I have no doubt life and death decisions were made by you. Until those children mature to adulthood they are yours. I think it is the same with God, but we never reach adulthood we are always the children.
Eze.18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine;...
FWIW, I've really enjoyed your give and take on this, except for some of the longer posts that I just haven't had the time to read.
No it's not complex ,dear brother, and we have been through this before and you use people and so called experts who twist the actual writings of the Church fathers and you have been shown the Church Fathers believed Eucharist is the Actual body of Christ. This has coupled with the many documented miracles which you choose to ignore.
From your source""Irenaeus has been brought as a witness for the Roman doctrine, only on the ground of a false reading
Irenaues is very clear and there can be no false reading of what he means in the following- that the Eucharist is really Christ ...
“So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.” Saint Irenaues-”Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely You really need to stop reading what other people twist and read the Church Fathers writings for yourself.
Hey, good luck on your date...Be home by Midnight...
Ἀντιόχεια ἡ ἐπὶ Δάφνῃ
You surely didn't think that it was written in English in your KJV that Jesus and the Apostles taught from, did you?
The Church which was created by Jesus the Christ. Whose term are you using?
Pity, that. With us, it's just us and Jesus Christ. If you would want to join Christianity, give us a shout.
1st of all it is R N mom as in nurse.. Secondly I was a cradle Catholic, educated by Franciscans, Srs of Namur and Srs of Mercy ..Catholic educated through College. I was a lector,liturgist,CCD teacher ,and speaker at woman's retreats, my guess is I have forgotten more Catholic doctrine than you have ever known.
Instead of being insulting try addressing the issues..if you are incapable of that try a catholic forum where they will believe everything you say.
Christ did not come for the righteous..OR SELF RIGHTEOUS ..He came for sinners like me.. Poor.lost in good works and an effort to make myself acceptable to God ... little did I know then that all of my works in church and for charity were filthy rags before God, and I could do NOTHING to recommend myself to him.
So my friend, you are right about my spiritual condition, it is one that daily must repent and thank God for my Savior Christ.....I know that my salvation rests not on me or my works but on the work of Christ.. I am a filthy rotten sinner that has a loving Father that adopted her in spite of who and what she was and is..
What a glorious God we have..
Every single early Church father without a single exception believed Eucharist to be the actual Body of Christ present and I have been blessed enough to witness miracles associated with Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament,so it is impossible that the Catholic Church is wrong.Sadly, it is you who is wrong.
Did the church fathers agree on ALL DOCTRINE WITHOUT EXCEPTION? or were they fallible human beings? Could they have error in their teachings? Are they infallible like scripture?
The theory of transsubstantion was not developed until the 9th century by a monk Paschasius Radbertus . At that time a monk named Ratranmus wrote: “The bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ in a figurative sense”
This controversy continued until the 13th century... it was not "resolved "until the the Lateran Council in 1215
The Doctor of the Church, Duns Scotus, admits that transubstantiation was not an article of faith before that the thirteenth century....so you assertion that it was always held to be the real body and blood is just not accurate. It was not a doctrine of faith until that time, before that if you were Catholic you were allowed to believe it was or was not the actual body of Christ.
There can be discussion of what church fathers actually thought or taught, keeping in mind Augustine’s advice “to guard us against taking a metaphorical form of speech as if it were literal.
There are many well documented Eucharistic miracle’s through the ages ,even a Video of the Sacred Host that bled beating like a human heart on December 8, 1991 during the celebration of midnight Mass for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in Betania, Venezula video link
You know the biggest miracle is when the Holy Spirit moves in an unregenerate man and He is born again. It is a gift of Gods grace that not one man deserves, yet that in Gods mercy He extends to an unworthy creation.. all other miracles pale in comparison.. And in case you wonder..no I do not believe a piece of bread is worthy to be prayed before or honored or that IT can preform any miracle.. I would look elsewhere for the cause of that
Well guess what...I’m about 40 miles from Berlin...But it ain’t in Germany...Imagine that...
How many Antiochs do you think were scattered around the world of the Bible? Antioch, South Africa? Antioch, South Dakota? Antioch, Planet Mars? Antioch, the Andromeda Cluster?
Really, do you really imagine that the Apostles with their electronic KJV on their IMACs were warping through space to Talos IV in order to bring the Good News of Jesus to the Talosians?
"May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."
And what church would that be?
It is like saying have a good day as she is not a dispenser of any grace or blessing ,she like me was a recipient of it.. so put it on ignore :)
No pity necessary. There is one true religion....I’m still looking for it.
And for you to infer I am without Jesus Christ is passing false witness.
Some of them sure think they are!
Ya know Harley this is a pretty clear scripture.. the fact that one can shrug and say it may not mean what it says only proves the truth of scripture..It indeed "is foolishness to those that are perishing"
The one that Jesus spent three years creating and nurturing while here on Earth. The one that He added Paul to. The one that Peter was the first steward of, when Jesus Ascended. The one that was comprised of the five original sees and gradually came to encompass all the world. The one that the Protestants, well, protested against. You may have heard of us - the Church of Jesus the Christ.
And for you to infer I am without Jesus Christ is passing false witness.
'Twasn't me, it was you. You said that it is just you and your Bible. Your words.
No Jesus need apply, right? You have it all down pat? Except the statement that you are still looking for it. Okay. If you want Christianity, you can find us everywhere. Or nearly, at any rate. There are some snake pits that we have not succeeded in cleaning out...
Romans 3:10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.;12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
I would argue that the sin of Adam so damaged him that he died spiritually and he could no longer choose to do anything that was pleasing to God. Unless God restores his spiritual life men, as Adams sons, are totally incapable of making any God pleasing choice. Everything he does is sin to God.
We can do good and make good choices by mans standards, but not Gods. We need His enabling grace to come to Him.He grants us the ability to repent , He gives us a new heart and changes our will so it is truly free to choose Him, it is no longer in bondage to sin. Thats why salvation is all of God
“God would have all of us come to saving repentance, but our rejection of Him means we all will not. / And this is where we would disagree.”
“3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Tim 2
For full context, see here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20tim%202&version=ESV
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” - 2 Peter 3
Context: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+3&version=ESV
“Why exactly did God “chose” the nation of Israel?”
To be a light to the world, and fulfill the promise to Abraham.
“”Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” - Gen 12
“7And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.” - Gen 17
“Why did He command the Israelites to march into Canaan and order the people to destroy them rather than preach to them?”
Sanctification - so the people he would bless the world thru would not be polluted and destroyed by the evil. Also, to punish the evil people living there, who had been storing up wrath for 400+ years.
“And why does God harden the hearts of the Jews:”
You take hardening the heart to mean changing it from positive (receptive) to negative (rejection). I take it to mean making manifest what was already there - the word in the Hebrew includes “to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore”, and in the Greek “1) to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus”.
Romans 11: “2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew...5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace...The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”...12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!...I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27”and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”...they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”
A callous forms where there is already irritation, from two things going in opposite directions. The callous dulls the pain, but the difference was already there.
As sometimes happens, different camps can read into this what they already believe. If you wish to interpret it that God takes someone who would repent, and prevents them, I cannot stop you. If I take it that God hardens what is already hard, and lets those who would not see go blind, you cannot stop me.
But since God has said, repeatedly and explicitly, that he DOES want all to come to repentance, I think my interpretation stays IAW scripture as a whole. When Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him”, I take “world” to mean world, not elect.
“I don’t mean to be rude, but do you (or any of us) have the ability to choose between good and evil?”
If not, then scripture sure has a lot of incorrect passages!
“Free will by definition means that man is capable of making decisions apart from God. That certainly does mean that he could make a decision that would please God or displease God’s favor. It also means that man is free to do as he pleases.”
Guess we are using different definitions.
“My point is that there are Reformed Baptists and then there are non-Reformist. There are only two types of beliefs in the world. You either are a synergist (God and man working together for man’s salvation) or you’re a monergist (God working for man’s salvation).”
There are General Baptists and Particular Baptists, to use an old phrase. And if a synergist takes the statement of Jesus at face value: “28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”, then I’m a synergist.
If a synergist thinks we merit God’s grace, or earn it by obedience and good deeds, then I’m a monergist.
You see, there are not only two beliefs in the world. I’ve stated many times now that no man can reach up to God, but that God seeks us and cross the chasm to meet us. The difference is between God inviting us to dance, or kidnapping us. When Jesus told unbelievers, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”, I take it to mean they refuse to come to Jesus, not that God blocks them from coming.
If that makes me a synergist, I am. But God seeks us out, and we are not looking for him, but are ‘surprised by God’...at least, I was. So I’m a monergist.
Or, to use John MacArthur’s analogy, Paul wrote Romans, and God wrote Romans. Both 100%. Deal with it. Jesus is man - 100%. Jesus is God - 100%. Deal with it.
We are saved by God’s grace and His alone, with nothing of ourselves. We repent or reject, and need to walk in the Spirit. Deal with it.
We are dancing, however. God does not kidnap, and scripture is quite explicit - God wants all to repent. All do not.
A BIG Amen to that...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.