[Cronos]

Well, the concept of and the ramifications/effects of a belief in predestination troubles me -- it seems so akin to a Hindu belief of an upper-caste and it seems to negate the idea of an all-loving Christian God.

On other dogmatic issues, one can have a sensible debate and at times (like with the Orthodox) realise one is using different words for the same thing but predistination, and limited atonement seem like a basic either-or, no gray area or possibilities of misunderstanding.

[Forest Keeper]

Well, the concept of and the ramifications/effects of a belief in predestination troubles me -- it seems so akin to a Hindu belief of an upper-caste and it seems to negate the idea of an all-loving Christian God.

I'm not sure what you mean with "upper-caste". How would you describe the Israelites in the OT? They were separated from the gentiles by God to be the Holy people of God. That's pretty much how I see the idea of the elect, although it isn't exactly the same since many of the Israelites were not saved. On the merits, the elect aren't any better of a people than anyone else, just as the Israelites weren't. They were just chosen. I mean, you guys are in, so ........... :)

......... but predestination, and limited atonement seem like a basic either-or, no gray area or possibilities of misunderstanding.

Yep, I'd agree with that. I can't think of any third positions on these off the top of my head.