I couldn't reconcile the L & I in TULIP with scripture.If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.
IIRC I sent you the brilliant work by Calvinist Baptist preacher, Arthur Pink, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. You should read it sometime, especially chapter five.
As for Calvinist Baptists, I'd estimate there are more Calvinist Baptists in these discussions on FR than Presbyterians.
As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.
All of life is determined by God, not men. We either have been named by God as one of His family from before the foundation of the world, or we haven't. If we have, one day, at a time of God's choosing, we will know of our redemption by God's grace through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, and we will believe by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us new eyes and new ears and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind in order to "know the things of God."
If we haven't been named as one of His own, we won't care in the slightest. We will enjoy ourselves as natural men and women and die ignorant of our condemnation.
And each of our lives plays out according to God's plan. That is the greatest comfort for the Christian. Romans 8:28 is true. Thank God. It's all about mercy and not debt. Gratitude is the only proper perspective.
“If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.”
If God’s highest value was for all men to be saved, all would be. However, if God prefers the willing obedience of sons, given in love, to the forced obedience of those without choice, then He will allow us to choose wrong as well as right. That isn’t a denial of his sovereignty, but an acceptance of it!
James White, a guy I’ve read a lot by and respect, argues that if Jesus died for all but all were not saved, then Jesus would have failed in his goal. However, again, if God’s goal is willing servants and sons, then it would be entirely appropriate for God to die for all, knowing that many would refuse His offer of salvation. It is GOD’s goal that is of interest, not ours.
“Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.”
Incorrect. I’ve been saved, but I certainly couldn’t call myself a “slave of righteousness”. If so, I’m a mighty poor slave at times!
What does scripture say?
“12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.” - Romans 6
Paul is encouraging us to...what? “Present yourselves to God”. We are involved, and Paul wants us to choose right.
To cite the passage you allude to:
“17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.”
Note, this is an analogy - Paul says “I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations”. He then tells us to do something: “For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.”
Just as our choices were once to let our deeds reveal our hearts of stone, let us now do deeds that reveal a heart of flesh. Let us give obedience, not from fear, but willingly...”Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
Paul argues for us to make a choice...to give ourselves to obedience which leads to righteousness. However, he does NOT say, “You are slaves, so God will make you obey”.
In Galatians, he writes, “13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.”
Why would he warn us not to “use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh”, unless it were possible? And while I cannot speak for others, in my own life, I find it all too easy to do exactly that. But instead, Paul tells us to “walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” If we had no choice, Paul would have no reason to write. These are words written to people who have a choice, and whose choices have consequences.
Romans 8:28 is followed by Romans 8:29 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Notice, he doesn’t say, those God predestined, he called. Paul writes, “those whom he foreknew he also predestined”...so foreknowing is different from predestination. Predestination refers to the goal of the saved - to be conformed to the image of his Son. And these are the ones whom God called, and justified, and glorified.
“As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out.”
Please do not take offense, but if I have to choose between your judgment, and the judgment of John MacArthur & J Vernon McGee, I’ll go with the latter two. I personally am more in the free will camp than the predestination camp, which I believe mistakes the goal for the method of getting there...but I respect the men I quoted enough to grant that this retired Electronic Warfare Officer MAY be oversimplifying things.
As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out. Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.
And, according to that explanation:
1. CalvinGod wills who will be a slave to sin and who will be a slave to righteousness.
2. CalvinGod determined that before time
3. Calvingod also does not give you free will
4. Ergo, all the actions, good or bad that you do are directed by calvingod's hand, you have no will or say in that.
5. So, all the evil that Charles Manson did was directed by calvingod's hand, Manson had no "free will" to choose his path.
6. Calvingod decided before time that Manson would kill so many people and how Manson would kill them. Calvingod also decided beforer time that Manson would hence go to hell because of the murders that calvingod did through him
It seems that Calvingod is
Jean Cauvin's image of god -- as some kind of king Godzilla.