I’ll say from the start that I naver studied theology, hermeneutics or even logic. In this, I probably represent a far greater number of people reading this forum than one might imagine judging from the types of posts that appear here.
We are the kind who get relegated to the devotional and caucas threads. But be assured—we are reading posts here.
“I confess I’m concerned by the bitterness of many religion threads”
So am I. There are times when I thought that many of them were such that the Lord could look out at it all and say “An enemy has done this.”
I, too, like your Orthodox brother, have just about decided not to post anymore. And I, too, took a recent vacation from the forum, only to come back after a while and find it more contentious than I had remembered.
“I’m trying to figure out what the right balance is between discussing and believing doctrine, and studying doctrine for its own sake-apart from the work of God in our lives”
Your last phrase was one that hit home with me.
It is the work of God in our lives that matters so much.
Those mature in their faith understand that God works with us as He knows best with our own unique personhood—that personhood of ours that is his own marvelous creation. He Who made us knows us best and knows how best to draw us to Himself. In the end it is Gift-and-Response which come into existence as we “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”.
Sooner or later we finally get it—that God is bigger than we can ever express in our feeble human terms; that we know we are called to love Him and serve Him in this life and to be with Him forever in the life to come.
It’s unfortunate to see some posters ridicule the manner of another’s prayer, as has been done on this very thread. It’s unfortunate to see intentional ridicule and contempt posted here of forms of worship and prayer that don’t meet the narrow standards of another person or the confines of another creedal profession. There is something less than holy to look down on the practice and belief of someone who, not known in person, may actually be transformed and made new by the love and reading of Scripture and the transformaton of his life by the love of the Lord. I count myself among those kind of people. I became a Catholic as a young adult over 60 years ago and it made of me what St. Paul writes: “the man who is in Christ Jesus is a new creation”.
Sure there is a place for this kind of debate and discussion but as time passes, for me at least, the acrimony on these threads has done more to tune me out than count me in.
Perhaps this actually IS a place where the educated and intellectual meet at one level of discourse and those not so educated and intellectual can stay in the confines of devotionals.
In the latter case, I think I can find all that I need in the worship of God at Mass in the community of my fellow Catholics and in lectio divina.
God bless us all.
ROE
All that you and Mr Rogers say is true, but the solution is not for thoughtful people capable of rational discussion to retire from the forum. When good posters leave, trolls fill the vacuum.
The solution is to present a clear exposition of our belief systems, and in doing so take the toxic threads away from the trolls.
I am as indignant as anyone when someone from another confession pretends to know that a Catholic praying to Mary is having idolatrous thoughts. But getting into a back and forth with a mindless propagandist is not resolving the issue. Explaining why prayers to Mary are worded and structured as they are is a teachable moment. It also is an opportunity to offer these same prayers publicly. If we explain the Catholic theology and praxis calmly, we will not silence the trolls but we will make their work serve a useful purpose.
I find that one of the real challenges here is that people have different agendas and different understandings of argument, debate, discussion, etc. Sometimes verses are hauled out as triumphant refutations or confirmations of some point and yet to the dispassionate observer there is no necessary connection between the adduced text and the point it is supposed to support.
And there is little appreciation for the different sorts of proof possible when different sorts of things are being considered. There is less ability to turn back and examine an argument and determine what its rules, tacit or express, are.
And then there are people here who do not intend to converse. They deal almost exclusively in blesses and curses. Either one agrees or one does not.
These latter sometimes seem to follow the school of "If you did not agree with me, it MUST be because you did not hear me." So they say the same thing again and again, maybe a little louder or more confrontatively.
All this passion, little skill and less desire for negotiation. No wonder it's a scandal!
It is the work of God in our lives that matters so much.
Those mature in their faith understand that God works with us as He knows best with our own unique personhood—that personhood of ours that is his own marvelous creation. He Who made us knows us best and knows how best to draw us to Himself. In the end it is Gift-and-Response which come into existence as we “work out our salvation in fear and trembling”.
Sooner or later we finally get it—that God is bigger than we can ever express in our feeble human terms; that we know we are called to love Him and serve Him in this life and to be with Him forever in the life to come.
############
MUCH AGREE.
As to the other . . . ridicule etc. . . .
For the first 20 or so years of my life . . . I was fragile enough in personality, emotionality etc. that I would easily cry out right or go hide and cry because someone had looked at me funny or made a joke about me or ridiculed me either in a clear way or a way I did not understand.
By God’s strengthening and mercy, I eventually grew out of that level of insecurity.
In College, in my Navy Human Relations job, in my PhD program, through 3,000 hours of intense group process experience—mostly in leadership—I learned that life is a contact sport.
And some issues, some principles and even some participants take no prisoners.
Please bear with me, RM, I don’t have a better example than myself, or I would use it.
On this forum, I do not believe that any other single poster has been
—MORE RIDICULED,
—MORE PERSONALLY ASSAULTED,
—MORE MALIGNED,
—MORE DERIDED,
—MORE PERSONALLY INSULTED,
etc.
than I have.
I think that’s exceedingly documentable almost any given month for over 10 years—though some few years I lurked.
So what. Life is a contact sport.
Some have been perceptive enough to notice that when they engage me in a civil fashion—even if we had theretofore been fierce with one another—I will immediately become quite civil and almost affectioinate—or as affectionate as one can be over the wires.
It has been my tradition and habit to take enormous amounts of attack, ridicule, assault before I take a very vigorous stand against it.
That has been true here.
I will defend in a flash ideas etc. yet take personal attack after attack . . .
TO A CERTAIN POINT.
We are well past that point with 1-3 dozen folks in the more rabid Vaticans cliques.
It has become abundantly clear—SCREAMINGLY CLEAR—that the only language they understand is ridicule, satire etc.
I’m quite flexible. I’m usually pretty well able to communicate in the style that the folks on the other end of the phone engage in/require.
I don’t believe that many will learn tons thereby. They seem immune to learning at all.
HOWEVER, THE LURKERS WILL OBSERVE THAT AT LEAST
THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW OF REALITY THAT IS JUST AS FORCEFUL, JUST AS VERBALLY SKILLFUL, JUST AS INTENSE etc. as the words and style of the other side.
There IS a time to return a fierce stimulus with a soft reply.
And I’ve done that repeatedly hereon.
I’ve very rarely observed the opposite.
While I don’t expect a ton of learning on the part of any of the 1-3 dozen in the rabid cliques,
I also know that ON OCCASION, EVEN SUCH HARDENED, BITTER, VENGEFUL, RESENTFUL folks as that
CAN have a light bulb go off and change.
I have virtually NEVER observed that with a gentle soft approach from someone cast in the role I’m in. I actually much prefer the soft gentle approach as little as some would believe that hereon.
Such folks are somehow quite immune. They want compliance with their reality totally or they insist on fighting tooth and toenail.
Welllll, I’ve learned that such folks, to some degree NEED someone to stand up to them tooth and toenail with the altnernate reality vividly displayed. That’s virtually their only hope of ever waking up.
It occasionally happens . . . that they wearily realize the brick wall is not moving and that bloodying their head on it further makes little sense.
It’s not ideal. It’s not my preferred.
Yet, I don’t know
ANY OTHER WAY
to present an equally forceful view of reality to lurkers
OR
to offer any genuine loving hope for the bitter, resentful, vengeful than to present to them an equally fierce reply.
I think it also depends on what we are talking about in a particular thread. This one has been a rollicking free-for-all. It was ostensibly started out as a question about what do we call a particular Caucus. But it was never intended as such by the originator (as you can make out by subsequent posts) and was rather intended as what it became: a free-for-all. A post that asks a question “What is pre-destination and why do you believe in it or not?” would be a better place for a true intellectual argument, provided we don’t digress.