Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
Hacksaw, It was Jesus who said
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {14} Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Mat 7:13-14)
If there be few there that find it, then are not thre majority damned. Can you fidn any text which indicates otherwise, tragic as it is? And yet it is easy to be saved, if men would but be as the penitential publican, and trust Christ and His blood for salvation.
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (1 John 5:19)
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Peter 4:18)
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. (Isaiah 1:9)
And the stats are stats, carefully attributed
True. Originally, we discussed how the word is used in the Scripture, so being of archaic disposition myself, I made that assumption and did not ask you...
LOL.
I don't think I'll touch that one with a 6 foot rubber dictionary.
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030).
"The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." (The Second Vatican Council, p. 63).
“The poor souls in purgatory cannot do anything for themselves to shorten their suffering. But Christ, their Redeemer, is always speaking to the Father for them, and Mary and the other Saints are also praying through Christ and with Christ.” (A Catholic Catechism, p. 337)
"An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins." The Church does this not just to aid Christians, "but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity" (CCC 1478).
Assisting with devotion at the procession of the holy Rosary (7 years and 7 quarantines of indulgence); Or "with faith, piety and love" saying "My lord and my God" at the elevation of the host during Mass (7 years); Kissing the Pope's (300-day indulgence, but a bishop's gets only 50); Ascending the holy stairs in Rome on one's knees, "whilst meditating on the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ" (9 years per step). - The Raccolta : or, Collection of indulgenced prayers and good works"
Key texts in opposition:
(Luke 23:43) "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
(2 Cor 5:8) "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
(1 Th 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1. We are forgiven of all sins when we become born again (Col. 2:13), and that for those who die in the faith there is no further punishment, except the loss of rewards. The only postmortem suffering for saints is that they will suffer loss by their works being burned up, works which were done out in union with God and not led by His Spirit (1Cor. 3:10-15). But it is clear here that it is not the person who is affected by the fire but his works.
2. All the verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11).
3. The Bible states that it is the chastening of the Lord in this life that works to make us holy (Heb. 12), and keep or bring us back to saving faith, that we be not "condemned with the world" (1Cor. 11:34), and thus judgment begins at the house of God (1Pt. 4:17). And in such texts that deal with the issue of chastening, nothing is even intimated of a postmortem period of such for New Testament believers, though different degrees of authority and glory (Mt. 13:43; 16:27; 19:28; Mk. 10:40; 1Cor. 15:41; Rv. 5:4; 20:4) seems evident, in accordance with every man being rewarded according to his own labor in the Lord (1Cor. 3:8).
4. It is the flesh in which no good thing dwells (Rm. 7:18) and which cannot be made subject to the law of God (Rm. 8:7) that is the problem, but which is not going to be purified, but is to be crucified (Rm. 6).
In the case of the penitent thief, surely are not to suppose that a few hours on the cross was what purified this man enough that he could go directly with God? Rather, his cry for salvation, out of a broken heart and a poor and contrite spirit (Ps. 34:18) brought him salvation, and the imputed righteousness of Christ *Rm. 4 ― 5:1). And if 1 Cor. 5:8 only refers to Paul and “canonized saints,” then surely he would have made a distinction between himself and other, less sanctified saints [all believers in the New Testament are “called saints,” Rm. 1:7; 1Cor. 1:2 (literally)]. But he tells the Corinthians, who needed the most work, that if the rapture occurred then they would go to be the Lord as well (1Cor. 15). As concerns the latter, the idea that souls who die in grace must be further purified before they can dwell with God militates against the incorruptible condition that raptured saints obtain, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor 15:53). And since we shall be like Jesus when He shall appear (1Jn. 3:2), and we enter into the "glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rm. 8:21), then not only would saints who die before that time be yet absent from the LORD, but a radical reworking of eschatology would be needed, that would put the coming of the Lord after all the saints, dead and alive, have gone through an indeterminate time of purifying. Yet the Bible speaks of going immediately to be with God and the rapture as an event that could be imminent whenever the conditions were met (2Thes. 2:1-4).
Hm. Ever tried any?
I know...I steal your’s all the time!!!
I assumed . . .
the most seemingly fitting gestalt of the term from the general vernacular flavored with a huge dose of common usage in Christian circles.
I see no logical reason to limit it to any archaic meaning.
THE KJV is close enough to both archaic and current vernacular, I think.
However, even though it involves the typical Roman Catholic et al PRESUMPTIVENESS hereon . . . I'll run with the archaic for a bit . . .
suffering . . . my sufferings have been my lessons . . .
MY PASSIONS HAVE BEEN MY LESSONS . . .
What is passionate about our sufferings?
Any suffering worthy the term tends to HAVE ALL OUR ATTENTION. It's not as though we are going for a Big Mack and decide to tolerate a little suffering on the side with our french fries.
Real suffering is GRIPPING. IT HAS OUR FULL ATTENTION. WE WANT IT OVER AND DONE WITH ASAP. IT IS !!!NOT!!!! FUN!
It has our empassioned focus--at least initially & for some further time, before the circuits start to burn out.
One thief on Golgatha responded to his suffering with bitterness and hostility.
The other thief responded with humility and submission to God. Suffering worthy the name does that--burns off the dross; separates the sheep from the goats; the luke warm from the hot after God. Real passion is clarity personnafied, clarity maximized.
II. a passive emotion or condition, Xen., Plat.
Naw. Doesn't fit for me. There was nothing passsive about Christ's yes to The Father. Gethsemene documented that. PASSION IS, BY DEFINITION, in my dictionary--ACTIVE, ASSERTIVELY, IF NOT AGGRESSIVELY, PASSIONATELY ACTIVE, PROACTIVE, EVEN. The thief on the cross who found salvation--his passion proactively reached out toward God--seeking Salvation, solution, resolution, healing, wholeness, life. Authentic, life giving, life seeking passion from God does that.
III. in pl. incidents, occurrences, Plat.
Perhaps it depends. Certainly not in a pin-ball-machine-of life sort of way. Golgotha was an incident, an occurrence in both thieves lives. The saved one siezed the day and his chance at eternal life. He passionately reached out and grabbed it for all he was worth--and was satisfied that day. He was not just passively bumped around by the events on an ugly hilltop in Israel.
So I return to my earlier assertions . . . I'm utterly convinced that in Heaven . . . our PASSIONS WILL BE FULLER, MORE ROBUST, CERTAINLY PERFECTLY SANCTIFIED, PERFECTED, GODLY. YET THEY WILL BE OURS. My passions won't be identical to yours. Yet they will all be God infused, God focused and God directed.
I don't see us with wimpy pseudo shams of emotions weakly rubber stamping Holy Spirit's memo of the day.
We will be interacting in a passionate dance with God directly and with God through every other Heavenly resident it is our lot that period to cross paths with. Sometimes the passion will be deep slowly moving water . . . sometimes it will be a rushing torrent with lots of white-water. But not weak. Not cowardly. Not impotently passive. Not cluelessly tuned-out. Not timidly hiding for fear of loss or embarrassment.
NO! We will stand tall in the image He has perfected of Christ in us . . . walking in our high calling in Him. Dancing our role out WITH HIM.
Nothing remotely wimpy, passive, passionLESS about that!
Not in anything like the Heaven I've heard about. Not at all with The God of The Bible I know.
In the case of the penitent thief, surely are not to suppose that a few hours on the cross was what purified this man enough that he could go directly with God? Rather, his cry for salvation, out of a broken heart and a poor and contrite spirit (Ps. 34:18) brought him salvation, and the imputed righteousness of Christ
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INDEED.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
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However, I’m sure the contingent insisting that
their magicsterical and Tevya trump
‘not one jot or tittle changing Scripture’
any millenia
will be along shortly.
I’ve actually said many times on this forum that I AM a Catholic, but not in the Vatican sense, and I AM a Protestant, but not in the Geneva sense.
Since I can be called “not accurate,” and be called a liar (”not truthful”), then I can suggest that you have been brainwashed into believing that any church history not certified by the Vatican is untrue.
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
This is a canned robotic response from an organization that must limit the history of Christianity to guard its own authority.
I am not in communion with the Vatican, but I am a member of the Body of Christ, which is in heaven AND in earth (Ephesians 3:15), and has only one head, Jesus Christ, and NO single arch-vicar on this earth. I am a Vicar of Christ, along with EVERY other truly REGENERATED believer in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
I have a heritage that is not connected at all with Geneva, but I do PROTEST denominations of all kinds which dictate to the local assembly and try to bring them and individual believers under submission and subjection. And I do PROTEST the very concept that there is any legitimate single world-wide earthly, visible authority or churches.
I understand that your conviction is different.
Since I can be called “not accurate,” and be called a liar (”not truthful”), then I can suggest that you have been brainwashed into believing that any church history not certified by the Vatican is untrue.
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
This is a canned robotic response from an organization that must limit the history of Christianity to guard its own authority.
I am not in communion with the Vatican, but I am a member of the Body of Christ, which is in heaven AND in earth (Ephesians 3:15), and has only one head, Jesus Christ, and NO single arch-vicar on this earth. I am a Vicar of Christ, along with EVERY other truly REGENERATED believer in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:18-21).
I have a heritage that is not connected at all with Geneva, but I do PROTEST denominations of all kinds which dictate to the local assembly and try to bring them and individual believers under submission and subjection. And I do PROTEST the very concept that there is any legitimate single world-wide earthly, visible authority or churches.
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INDEED! WELL PUT. THANKS.
“So the Methodists, the UCC and the baptists (non reformed) Charismatic, Pentecostal, holiness churches and other Arminian denominations are not Protestant . In fact most are anti reformation headed back to Rome theologically.”
Yes,
Baptists
Church of Christ
Disciples of Christ
Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and its offshoots
And many others, of course.
But if a powerful organization that gets press can say often enough . . .
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
“If you are not in communion with the Catholic Church and profess to be a Christian you are a Protestant.”
Then even many members of those churches above will begin to indiscriminately and ignorantly use the term “Protestant.”
You know, pretty silly looking Pre-Medieval and Medieval artwork has been used for centuries to portray as Catholic anyone from the earlier centuries they want to claim. You know, the halo-headed, book against the breast, holding up the cigarette-fingers kind of images. The historical manipulation began very early.
I have books before me at this moment that have names of groups with which Catholic historians are unfamiliar in AMERICA just in the last 300 years. So, it is absurd to believe that Catholic historians have tabs on all of the Christian believers who were scattered out from Israel after the persecution of Acts chapter 8, believers who WENT EVERYWHERE PREACHING THE WORD. I am told on this thread that “The role of the [Catholic] Church is not that of policeman and District Attorney. . .”
Now the intent of that was actually to inform me that the Catholic Church is so loving that it actually has no enforcement of any rules as to who may receive the Eucharist. Its kind of a free-for-all without any discipline—Buddhists, Voodooists, spiritists—as long as they want to be identified as Catholics, too, it is not within the priests’ capability or responsibility to manage.
It was not only the Apostles that went preaching, or a priest class of men, but common believers WENT EVERYWHERE PREACHING THE WORD. All one has to do is look at emigration and immigration patterns from any portion of the past 2,000 years, and it would be utterly ridiculous to say that all Christians who were scattered from the time of Acts chapter 8 came under the authority of the Church of Rome (or any other form of Catholicism, for that matter).
There were large numbers of Christians in the Alps for hundreds of years before Luther and Calvin, who were NEVER, NEVER connected with any Church of Rome. There were large numbers of Christians EVERYWHERE PREACHING THE WORD, even in northern Europe and the British Isles long before there were priests of Rome there.
I've never heard a dictionary referred to as that before.
And to that a most hearty AMEN.
Well, at first I thought it was a sidebar, between only you two. Now I have to go backtrack. *sigh*
And you will need to be quick to avoid being bit. ;-D
Regarding Christ—He is not a creation of God’s. The credo says, “Begotten not made, one in Being with the Father.” The implications flow from that foundation.
Jesus being the ONLY ONE to keep the Law (as the CCC says) has everything to do with the doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary. If Mary was sinless, then by definition she kept the Law perfectly.
The doctrine of sinlessness refers instead to her role as the vessel that held God. That vessel had to be pure.
If that is all it refers to, then are you saying that after Jesus was born Mary sinned every bit as much as any other believer might have?
“When are you sanctified? Now? Are you currently pure enough (sinless) to enter the Kingdom?”
Yes. In God’s eyes, I am sinless now because he has forgiven all my sins. In His eyes, I’m already in heaven, seated with Him in Christ.
“Purgatory is not punishment.”
Of course it is. Temporal punishment for already forgiven sins.
“The process of transition between transgression and purity is referred to as Purgatory.”
We are pure because of what Christ has done, not because of what we will do. I’ll write more later - just up getting some motrin for a sinus headache.
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