Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You assumed the blog is sanctioned, now prove it.

lol. I made no comment about the blog. Others did. And any "assumptions" are theirs.

I said the Legion of Mary was sanctioned by the Vatican.

So your comments are just more rewriting of the past from fact to fiction.

[Mad Dawg]

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

These are not passions. These are virtues.

Sancte Thoma: ora pro nobis.

Question 70. The fruits of the Holy Ghost

1. Are the fruits of the Holy Ghost acts?
2. Do they differ from the beatitudes?
3. Their number?
4. Their opposition to the works of the flesh

---------------
Virtue

Question 55. The virtues, as to their essence

1. Is human virtue a habit?
2. Is it an operative habit?
3. Is it a good habit?
4. The definition of virtue

From article 4:

"Virtue is a good quality of the mind, by which we live righteously, of which no one can make bad use, which God works in us, without us."

Aquinas says he gets this from Augustine, but the debt to Aristotle is there as well.

Aquinas specifies in article 4 that he is referring to "infused" virtues. Of these I am TOLD, but I haven't checked it, there are two kinds:

1. The Theological virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity, which are given by God.
2. What a priest friend called "infused cardinal virtues." The Cardinal virtues are: Justice, Fortitude, Temperance, and Prudence, and speaking humanly they are developed by their practice. That is, choosing to be fair, and choosing so repeatedly will give one the "habitus" of justice, and people will tend to say, "So and so is a fair person." Or a brave or moderate or circumspect person.

   BUT the bravery shown by some martyrs is so spectacular that it must be divine in origin and cannot have been acquired by practice. So, in the example, that would be the "infused cardinal virtue of fortitude."

(Videtur (it would seem) that Aquinas was working on a text of Galatians that had 12 rather than 9 fruits. Go figger.)

But the reason I put all this up was not only for your amusement and info, but also to bolster the idea that the "fruits" are ACTS and not passions.

FWIW

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You're "still waiting" for Scripture you've been given at least a half dozen times.

Sorry, but I can only preach the Gospel to you. I cannot help you acquire eyes to see or ears to hear or a renewed mind or a heart of flesh to enable you to understand the words of God. Those are free gifts only God can bestow

Pray for them. God who is merciful answers all prayer, one way or another.

[MarkBsnr]

Sorry, but I can only preach the Gospel to you.

You don't preach the Gospel. An examination of your posts puts the lie to that statement. You preach snippets of Paul, buttressed by excerpts from the OT.

Pray for them. God who is merciful answers all prayer, one way or another.

I pray for all those who have strayed from Christianity.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"Blessed is the one you choose and bring near,to dwell in your courts!"

And, of course, scripture teaches God has chosen those who believe, rather than giving belief to those he has chosen

lololol. Sorry. This is worse than I thought. You offer the above verse, with a warning to me, no less, that I might not like the verse. Lol. I LOVE the verse since it contradicts the empty argument lodged in your very next remark.

Read again, Mr. Rogers...

"Blessed is the one you choose and bring near."

NOT...

"Blessed is the one who chooses you."

Thanks. I couldn't have illustrated the Arminian error any more clearly than you just did.

As God wills.

[annalex]

Yup. I knew I properly should check with the Summa, but slacked off.

Fixing the links.

Question 70. The fruits of the Holy Ghost

1.Are the fruits of the Holy Ghost acts?
2.Do they differ from the beatitudes?
3.Their number?
4.Their opposition to the works of the flesh

Question 55. The virtues, as to their essence

1.Is human virtue a habit?
2.Is it an operative habit?
3.Is it a good habit?
4.The definition of virtue

[HarleyD]

Let us not forget the angels. They had free will and 1/3 of them rebelled and were swept from the sky.

Where on earth does it say the angels have "free will"? Honestly, people need to read the text and only the text. The angels clearly have a will. That will is bound as our will, to either do the things that are of God or not. They are slave to righteousness or slaves to sin. It is not "free" to make choices. Otherwise we be seeing angels falling out of the sky daily.

[annalex]

Especially, on our topic of passions vs. virtues, St. Thomas has this to say (and mostly, to quote):

I answer that, The works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit may be taken in two ways. First, in general: and in this way the fruits of the Holy Ghost considered in general are contrary to the works of the flesh. Because the Holy Ghost moves the human mind to that which is in accord with reason, or rather to that which surpasses reason: whereas the fleshly, viz. the sensitive, appetite draws man to sensible goods which are beneath him. Wherefore, since upward and downward are contrary movements in the physical order, so in human actions the works of the flesh are contrary to the fruits of the Spirit.

Secondly, both fruits and fleshly works as enumerated may be considered singly, each according to its specific nature. And in this they are not of necessity contrary each to each: because, as stated above (3, ad 4), the Apostle did not intend to enumerate all the works, whether spiritual or carnal. However, by a kind of adaptation, Augustine, commenting on Galatians 5:22-23, contrasts the fruits with the carnal works, each to each. Thus "to fornication, which is the love of satisfying lust outside lawful wedlock, we may contrast charity, whereby the soul is wedded to God: wherein also is true chastity. By uncleanness we must understand whatever disturbances arise from fornication: and to these the joy of tranquillity is opposed. Idolatry, by reason of which war was waged against the Gospel of God, is opposed to peace. Against witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths and quarrels, there is longsuffering, which helps us to bear the evils inflicted on us by those among whom we dwell; while kindness helps us to cure those evils; and goodness, to forgive them. In contrast to heresy there is faith; to envy, mildness; to drunkenness and revellings, contingency."

Article 4. Whether the fruits of the Holy Ghost are contrary to the works of the flesh?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Lol. As funny as a pope who flagellates himself.

The security affored by the Calvinist perspective on Scripture which knows it is God alone who saves and saves completely and eternally makes for a healthy moral, mental and physical outlook on life.

OTOH Roman Catholicism (and its sister, Arminianism) breeds insecurity and a fear of the future, where the believer worries that at any moment he might slip up by not being "good enough," causing God to remove the covering of Christ from him.

Thank you, God, for revealing the joyous truth to sinners such as we. Christ will lose none whom God has given to Him. And we have a reasonable certainty we are among Christ's sheep because we have been given Trinitarian faith in the power and purpose of Christ's death and resurrection.

By His grace, for His glory, according to the word of God.

[RnMomof7]

But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

Gods grace and so sweet that those who have been regenerated by His spirit will never resist His call...

Will we sin.. we still have a human nature and as Paul says we sometimes do what we hate.. but the point is we do hate it, we no longer love our sin.

[HarleyD]

As much as I like and respect you, Harley, and I do, I’m saying that I’m not convinced you’ve got the scripture right.

And I respect you. However, I can think of no clearer example than John 1:12-13. If I am wrong then most of the commentators are wrong, the Protestant confessionals are wrong, and I have yet to hear an alternative plausible explanation. We might all as well go back to Rome.

[RnMomof7]

Excellent post

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks for fixing the links. Ooops.

[RnMomof7]

I said the Legion of Mary was sanctioned by the Vatican which it is. We can assume that blog is likewise sanctioned by Rome since it appears to be one of the many chapters of the Vatican-sanctioned Legion of Mary scattered throughout the world.

It probably does not have an imprimatur on every article, so that is why Catholics would say it is not sanctioned. But if that is true I wonder why observant Catholics read any blogs because they are not approved teachings and could be in error???

One thing to add is the pope recently asked catholics to be more active on the internet ... so although this may not be an "official" site it is in line with the popes request

[Petronski]

Spiced sparkling barley wine is the way I "class up" the word beer when my wife is around. ;OD.

As for that wall?

Two layers of half-inch drywall AND a 3/16ths skim coat, over a wall that turns out to be built on 2x2 studs...and I have a whole new embroidery of obscenities for my next confession.

That is NOT how we do things.

Rip it down
tear it out
do it right.

[Mr Rogers]

Dr E “your repetitive complaint that Calvinists don’t believe a man has to repent and believe in order to be saved.”

You are the one who says we must be born again first, and then receive faith and belief as a gift - contrary to the Gospel. And you claim this without any verses showing faith is a gift, or that belief is a gift.

And you are the one who claims God saves a man by election - IAW a name on a list - rather than from the man’s repentance and belief. You are the one teaching unconditional election, irresistible grace, and limited atonement.

When Jesus commands us to repent, and commands us to believe, he isn’t lying or mocking our inability to obey his commands. In response to the revelation of God, we are commanded to repent and believe - that is what we must do.

And it is described in scripture as what WE must do, not what God does to us. That is the error of Calvin, who read ‘dead in sin’ and took it to extremes unmoderated by the many other passages. Of course, that may be a drawback to writing a systematic theology book at 27...

I wrote that “but you insist that faith is “work”.

You reply, “Thanks for the compliment, but the words are not mine but Paul’s...

“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father” — 1 Thess. 1:3”

Let’s go to the scripture:

“2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.”

I’ll let others decide if the plain reading is that they are works that spring from faith, and labor that springs from love, or if Paul is saying faith and love are works - which we cannot do if we are to avoid the error of Rome!

Dr E “You’re following the wrong music; a big ditch waits right around the bend.”

Thanks for the warning, but if I have to choose between you as a guide, or Jesus Christ, I choose Jesus. I’d repeat John 3:15-18, but your theology would be offended to hear that God so loved the world, that whoever believes in him has eternal life, and whoever does not believe is condemned.

Aren’t you just a little disturbed to know there isn’t a single passage in scripture that says God gives us faith and belief as gifts after conversion? Or that God contradicts the idea in many passages?

Dr E “You’re “still waiting” for Scripture you’ve been given at least a half dozen times.”

You’ve posted a half dozen scriptures half a dozen times, out of context. You insist election and chosen apply to names, while ignoring hundreds of verses saying they apply to whoever believes.

Dr E “I also note you habitually lay off “inconvenient” verses to the fact they were said to the Jews (and therefore not applicable to all of us.)”

I’ve said that Romans 9-11 deals with ‘The Problem of the Jews’ - how could God’s Chosen People NOT believe in Jesus. That would be apparent to anyone who reads all three chapters.

Here is a link to the first of the 3 chapters:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209&version=ESV

Paul’s letter is a coherent discussion of ‘the faith’. Paul wrote letters, not sound bites. It is amazing how easy scripture is to understand when read in context.

[Mr Rogers]

Dr E “You offer the above verse, with a warning to me, no less, that I might not like the verse.”

Below is what I wrote:

---

FWIW, Psalms 65 has a verse 2 in it...are you SURE you want to quote this:

Praise is due to you, O God, in Zion,
and to you shall vows be performed.
O you who hear prayer,
to you shall all flesh come.
When iniquities prevail against me,
you atone for our transgressions.
Blessed is the one you choose and bring near,
to dwell in your courts!

And, of course, scripture teaches God has chosen those who believe, rather than giving belief to those he has chosen.

---

I specifically mentioned verse 2, which reads, “O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come.”

Of course, Dr E has a bit of a reputation when it comes to quoting...

And again, Dr E ASSUMES ‘choose’ means, ‘make a list of names’ rather than choosing ‘whoever believes’. And it is the latter that is found in scripture.

[Mad Dawg]

But if that is true I wonder why observant Catholics read any blogs because they are not approved teachings and could be in error???

We believe that the intellect is ordered toward truth and that freedom of enquiry is important for the trained intellect.

Protestants, at least some of them, by way of contrast, tell themselves so many falsehoods about us that the freedom of their intellect is in some doubt. We don't even have to get to theology.The fables about about the Bible being on the index or our forbidding vernacular translations are enough to show that something other than an "ordering toward truth" is going on here.

[Quix]

Hmmmmmmmmm

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[RnMomof7]

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
These are not passions. These are virtues.

They are just what they are called fruits.. they are produced by the Holy Spirit in the life of the saved man.. If one man wants to call them virtues and another fruit makes no difference . The man does not produce them or force their appearance , the Holy spirit is exhibited by them to the world

Matt 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The fruit is a mark of the indwelling Holy Spirit.. We can not make the Holy Spirit move in by practicing them .

Colossians12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God.

Now this sounds pretty passionate to me !