Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Sorry to hear you want to pick and choose which scripture to believe. God didn’t have a baby and create Jesus, and scripture explicitly states Jesus is God.
Deal with it or reject it, but we cannot discuss the issue if you don’t accept scriptural authority...we have no common reference with which to make progress.
What did you think was useful or edifying from them?
"However, I have no interest in haggling with you about it."
I don't want to haggle either. However, if you believe that Jesus is God, then you cannot admonish Catholics for stating Mary is the mother of God. If Jesus IS IN FACT GOD, then Mary is God's mother.
No one can have it both ways. It's either one or the other. That's all I'm saying.
HD “Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. / Faith comes from hearing the word of Christ. Why would it even need to come if faith is a “two-way” street?”
Faith comes into being when person A hears the word and believes Christ (person B). There is no such thing as faith involving just one party - it MEANS “confidence or trust in a person or thing”.
You cannot have faith in a bridge if there is no bridge, and the bridge cannot have faith in itself. Faith is when you trust the bridge will do what bridges do - support your weight as you cross it.
HD “What is the difference between God giving us a half measure of faith or a whole measure of faith?”
Faith isn’t a bushel of apples. It is either/or. You trust the other person, or you do not. If you do, it is faith. If you do not, it is not faith. Wavering faith is possible, where you switch back and forth between belief and not.
No it doesn't. YOU are the one picking and choosing, not me.
Matthew 3:16-17... And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Straning at gnats and swallowing camels has never been a favorite spectator sport of mine.
Okay.
Rev 12:1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
2And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven and behold a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his heads
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered for to devour her child as soon as it was born
5And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and to his throne
6 And the woman fled into the wildernesswhere she hath a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels
8And prevailed not neither was their place found any more in heaven
9And the great dragon was cast out that old serpent called the Devil and Satan which deceiveth the whole world he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ for the accuser of our brethren is cast down which accused them before our God day and night
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
The word "wonder" in greek is sēmeion which can also be translated SIGN So 1st we see the woman and the dragons are SIGNS, not actualities.
This woman has noting in common with Mary or the nativity /early life of Christ.
Indeed the passage does point us to Christ. But then who is the woman and why can it not be Mary?
This is an allegory, not an actual event. It is to teach us something about the nature of God. Some believe the woman is Israel from who's roots the Savior came. The woman is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. These are Old Testament symbols used for Israel (Jer. 31:35-36), and Gen. 37:9-10 where they speak of Jacob and his sons, the ones from whom Israel springs. Sjhe has on her head a crown made up of twelve stars (there are 12 tribes in Israel)
In the Old Testament Israel is sometimes called a "woman"(Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Mic. 4:9-10)
One commentator notes this
In 11"19 we read: "And the temple (sanctuary) of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of the covenant." This is strictly Jewish ground; the temple, the ark, the covenant belong to Israel, represent Hebrew relations with God and Hebrew privileges. The Spirit now takes up Jewish things, Jewish standing, covenant, hopes, dangers, tribulations and triumph." William Moorehead
What we do know is this woman as described does not fit what we know about Mary
She never fled into the wilderness, She never grew wings to fly there...and from a Catholic perspective two things should eliminate this sign as being Mary
1) She suffers labor pains, those pains are a part of the curse of original sin
2)This scripture speaks of her OTHER seed as a preputial virgin she would have no other seed
I gave you two verses that say Jesus is God - and one was a verse you cited as attacking the idea. You also need to think about what “Son of God” means. Here is a hint - Jesus wasn’t created.
3 persons. 1 God.
Spurred my imagination and excitement. That’s all I need out of a novel or movie. (don’t let on but, they’re fiction)
You would probably appreciate them more based on your background and knowledge.
I would love to hear your opinions.
EXCELLENT. WELL PUT.
Sometimes I’m embarrassed for Roman Catholics et al . . . regarding the silly things they are expected to believe . . . and this claim of this prophetic woman being Mary is one of those times. Incredible.
Hmmmm . . . the whole DaVinci code thing is offensive to me in general.
And I’ve studied globalism enough for enough decades . . . it’s not really a pleasure to read more of that ilk if I don’t have to.
IF there is one of those novels which is NOT the DaVinci code that you think I’d be MOST likely to enjoy, I’ll consider it just in honor of our friendship. The que is quite long, however.
Jesus may well come first.
Yes....1 God. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is the Son of God who sits at the right hand of the Father.
I would further refine your definition. Free will implies that man can sit in the middle, look at both sides of the situation, and then make an educated choice. If man truly had a free will, he would sit between heaven and hell and make some rational decision as to which way he would like to go.
Will, OTOH, implies man is led by something other then sound rational judgement. If man had a will, then he would be pulled into some direction based upon some desire or passion-not logic.
We know that if people rationally understood the decision laid before them, they would choose heaven. Yet they don't-no one does. This is because man's will pulls in the direction that is total destruction blinded by Satan. Adam's will wasn't "free will" because given the logical, rational choice of living in paradise or banished with your entire race doomed, he certainly would have chose paradise.
The only way people can possibly be saved is if God draws their will by giving them the wisdom to come to Him. The scriptures says:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
This is an excellent verse (is any not?). God doesn't pop wisdom into our minds to help us make decisions. Rather God pops wisdom into our minds to be draw to Him, to want to follow the light.
Free will is a myth. We cannot make rational, logical choices because we've been blinded by the prince of this world. There is only the will of man which is led toward destruction unless God turns that will. We can only be led by our desires.
Amen well put !
The 2nd person of the trinity, Christ had a fully human nature and a fully divine nature , So God , the son has a mother and her name is mary
Great sentiment!
Although, in ths particular case, she was the human vessel to bring Christ into the Earthly realm.
Most people aren't aware how Mary has evolved over time. In Scripture Jesus refers to her as woman. After the Apostolic Era ended she was called a "suitable vessel" then a couple hundred years later she was called "mother of God".
Now she is believed to have the power to filter prayers, snatch people out of purgatory and appear around the world giving messages from God. In time we will hear she has her own throne in heaven. It's all heresy and leads us away from the true Savior, Jesus Christ.
Right hand? So God the Father has a body? Sounds like Mount Olympus!
1 God. 3 persons. Scripture teaches it, but you don’t have to believe. Just remember the consequences for rejecting Christ.
The Psalms talk about God knowing us before we were knit in our mother’s womb.
However, we know very little to nothing about such a state. So pontificating about doctrine related thereto would be foolish.
In terms of Mary . . . it’s a straw dog anyway.
Doesn’t matter what her state was before her earthly one.
She was born into this time/space dimension as a mortal, flawed being like all the rest of us humans.
And no amount of phoney, bureaucratically concocted and affirmed power-mongering mythology will make up for that.
I think I’ve been clear enough about the term “Mother of God” and how inappropriate it is by it’s connotations and implications.
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