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Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?
Me

Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: 1holyapostolicchurch; apostates; catholic; catholicbashing; catholicwhiners; devilworshippers; eckleburghers; greeks; heathen; orthodoxyistheone; papistcrybabies; proddiecatholic; robot; romanistispejorative; romanists; romanistwhinefest; romannamecallers; russians
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To: Cronos
Well a fortiori then.
7,341 posted on 01/30/2010 10:24:34 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Natural Law
I don't know if the Catechism is considered to be holy in its own right

I never heard it referred to as "holy", nor, in fact, any of the Magisterial teaching so described. No one would say "holy encyclical" or "holy Council XYZ of the Church". I think, "protected from error" is about right.

7,342 posted on 01/30/2010 10:26:50 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: HarleyD

And the ecumenical councils also give us basics of Church doctrine which are rejected by those outside The Church


7,343 posted on 01/30/2010 10:27:01 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: wmfights
When confronted with truth RC's can repent or seek refuge in the RCC. I would run to Jesus, but that's just me.

And we don't see the dichotomy as complete as you do. The CHurchis the Body of Christ, and we, with certain waffles, identify the Catholic Church with 'the Church.'

7,344 posted on 01/30/2010 10:27:06 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Petronski
Are Mormons saved?? That's for God to decide. What about the JW's ? That's for God to decide. What about the Muslims? That's for God to decide.

He has decided already, read the bible

7,345 posted on 01/30/2010 10:28:31 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: caww; Forest Keeper
The horror is that most Americans don't realise that ourJudeo-Christian God is not the same asAllah.

Historically you can see that Mo was smart enough to create an empire by making the Bedo tribes think they were the chosen people and by taking political AND religious control of them (the Caliphs are head priests AND political emperors). And he took in ideas from Arianism, Judaism, Jewish Christians (like Ebionites etc.) and also Zoroastrianism (and of course a lot of pre-Islamic Arab paganism).

I do also believe that this is foretold in Revelations where you read about the false prophet of the dragon and the number 666. TheMuslims venerate the number 786 as those are the number of beautiful names given for Allah (Allah likes to be complimented with names like morning star -- you know who else loves compliments, right?

Read more about the "Satanic verses" and you'll find how illogical that religion is -- and then you read about the wives of Mo and you go "Ai-yi-yi!"
7,346 posted on 01/30/2010 10:38:20 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Forest Keeper; Natural Law; Alamo-Girl; Quix; NoGrayZone; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr; wmfights; ...
Would you then say that everything in the rest of the Catechism is right because it matches the higher authority of scripture, OR, would you say that everything in the rest of the Catechism is correct because the authors of the Catechism were inspired just like the authors of the Bible were?

I missed that from last Sunday.

I would say that everything in the Catechism is correct because it reflects accurately the Faith delivered to the Apostles and applies it to our condition today. The difference with the Holy Scripture is that the Scripture is words of Christ and inspired by Christ words of His apostles and prior revelation to the Jews. While the Church as a whole continues to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we cannot elevate any individual product to the level of divine dictation that the Holy Apostles received. Further, it is a modern product and therefore a change of focus might become necessary over years. For example, the Catechism addresses historical and sceintific developments of the modern age, which might become less relevant over the passage of time, and new things will be more relevant.

7,347 posted on 01/30/2010 10:40:40 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool; Petronski; Mad Dawg
That's why you have a catechism to follow...Because you can't follow the scriptures...

Because we DO follow scriptures -- name a scriptural injunct that we do not follow except the OT dietary rules and rules about circumcision.

We also believe in the tradition that brought about scripture, but do not have tradition that contradicts scripture
7,348 posted on 01/30/2010 10:41:17 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: HarleyD
This was one of the main reasons the Reformation occurred.

Not really -- the Reformation really began over socio-political abuses by priests and bishops. And this was abetted by Germanic princes and the English Kings who wanted to loot the monasteries to get more money for themselves...
7,349 posted on 01/30/2010 10:42:47 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Petronski; Iscool
Iscool: That promise wasn't to you...

Petro: I can believe you or I can believe Christ.

Depends on whether you are Iscoolian or Christian.
7,350 posted on 01/30/2010 10:43:53 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: RnMomof7; Petronski

“The question is who will believe? And WHAT will they believe ?? / Are Mormons saved?? They believe? What about the JW’s ? They believe ??What about the Muslims? They believe?”

No, not in the God revealed in scripture. Mormons are polytheists - there are many gods, and we will all become gods of our own world if we follow Joseph Smith. That is not following Christ.

The JWs deny the deity of Christ. You cannot be saved by believing in the wrong God.

It isn’t belief by itself, but believing in God. The real God. The one who exists. And that requires God to reveal himself to us, and to seek us out.

He gives all some revelation. Those who refuse it may lose whatever they already have. But the passage you cite doesn’t show that God saves a list of names, but he saves those who believe - who respond with faith to his revelation.


7,351 posted on 01/30/2010 10:49:44 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: esquirette; Mad Dawg
One clear thing to remember esquirette is that Mary was filled with the Grace of God and that God took her up to heaven. Mary did not do that herself, she had no "powers", yet she did the greatest thing, which was, when the angel Gabriel came to ask her if she would bear The Christ, she said yes. πλήρης χάριτος. Θεοτόκος
7,352 posted on 01/30/2010 10:52:59 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Mad Dawg
And we don't see the dichotomy as complete as you do.

RC's that fall into these Marian beliefs are embracing heresy. These are beliefs were made up after the Apostolic era ended. These are beliefs lead to practices that are repugnant to God.

The Scriptures don't need to be added to.

1John 1:4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

7,353 posted on 01/30/2010 10:53:09 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights; wagglebee

What are these “heretical” beliefs of The Church that you speak of? The belief that Mary is the Theotokos, the Mother of God?


7,354 posted on 01/30/2010 10:56:09 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

remember — you said that the BLOG was an “Official Vatican approved website”. Just like you said that a website by a UFOlogist was a “Roman Catholic website”. And just like the link to a VANITY FR thread was posted as “proof” for an argument.


7,355 posted on 01/30/2010 10:57:55 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: wmfights

I’m wondering where it says in the Bible that being urgent in season and out of season means repeat the same thing over and over again.


7,356 posted on 01/30/2010 10:58:02 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; blue-duncan; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; boatbums
(not on foreseen faith or good works) - Who told you that? I thought his reasons were unknown

God's reasons for electing one man and not another are unknown to us.

However, we are told why God doesn't elect one man and not another, irrespective of any good or evil those men might do or have done...

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple" -- Psalm 65:4


"...are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:9-11

We do not know why God has chosen us to bring to Him by grace through faith in Christ. But we certainly know some of the reasons which were not why He choose us --

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11


"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -- John 15:16

Men are not chosen for anything in themselves. They are chosen and then regenerated to repentance, faith and good fruit by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It's ALL of, by, for and through Jesus Christ.

"And they were both righteous before God"

Amen. Were they "righteous" of their own accord? If so, they'd be the first who were. In order to be righteous, to "know the spiritual things of God," a man must be born again, not by his own will, but by God's free, regenerative gift of the Holy Spirit.

Calvinists are always puzzled Arminians do not (yet) see that to presume God elected them (even in part) according to their own righteousness and their good work of faith is 100% "boasting." Our faith is not of ourselves. It is an unearned, merciful gift from God to whom He will for His glory alone.

Read Zanchius. It's wonderful.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

Why do men glory in who they are and what they have as if these things came from themselves and not from God alone?

Because it feels sooo good.

7,357 posted on 01/30/2010 10:58:47 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: RnMomof7
Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all men but was applied only to the children of God

So then logically, you believe that Christ did not die on the Christ for all men? Even though scripture tells us otherwise?
7,358 posted on 01/30/2010 11:01:20 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: HarleyD; Mad Dawg; Petronski; annalex; Iscool; Dr. Eckleburg
And here we come round about as to what the meaning of atonement is. The "blood has become the instrument of atonement". Wrong. We are atoned of our sin through our Lord Jesus. The shedding of the blood is the price for that atonement-the remissions of our sins.

I just noticed that there are two very similar conversations going along two different lines. To Harley and Petronski, I was asking that if Catholics believe Jesus atoned for our sins then why is confession necessary to get into Heaven? In 6168 Alex began his answer by saying that Catholicism holds that Jesus did in fact die for all of our sins everywhen, but that this atonement does not attach to the individual soul on a go-forward basis after baptism unless there is penance:

Alex: Christ has fully and completely atoned for any sin anyone has committed or will commit, big or small, confessed and absolved or not, cleansed in Purgatory or not. ....... Any penitential action one can do does not add to the atonement worked by Christ. That includes simple inward sorrow for a sin, outward sorrow expressed to others in words, restitution of material harm done, physical self-punishment or self-humiliation, prayers, pilgrimages and Bible studies, sacramental confession, reception of absolution, purgatorial cleansing, -- none of that makes the sin in question any better atoned for than it was atoned at Golgotha near 2,000 years ago. What these acts of penance do is apply the atonement to your soul.

My response got into justification by faith, etc.

7,359 posted on 01/30/2010 11:06:03 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Mad Dawg

Yes, however, in the Eastern tradition she was assumed Body and Soul. Either way, her body isn’t buried here (or we’d have hundreds of Marian relics around). And we don’t have her burial place.


7,360 posted on 01/30/2010 11:06:13 AM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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