Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Ugh, you poor thing. Mouth pain is one of the worse. You can’t take Vicodin ES? I find that to be a much better pain reliever, well, the patients do anyway.
There are things that we do understand:
2) God foreknew and predestined everything according to His will.
3) We are know to God while we are still within the womb.
4) God lead our paths, harden our hearts, makes us do the things He wants us to do to enact His plan.
But, let's face it, many people would rather chuck this idea and embrace an idea that God gives away His sovereignty to man to choose Him, God really don't understand who's going to accept Christ unless He peeks down the time tunnel, and everyone is free to accept Christ except a whole host of people who God has hardened their hearts. None of these things are even remotely supported with an HONEST evaluation of scripture. All I ever hear is, "Yes, but..."
There are NO clearer verses than these:
Personally, if I have the choice to not understand God's determinative council or just ignore a bunch of clearly written scripture and formulate my own opinion of God; then I'll choose not understanding God's council. But then, it's not my choice.
“Like the headgear. Are you really sleepriding or are you just bored by Calvinist claptrap?”
Bored waiting for my wife to take the picture...
I started wearing helmets a year ago, when Mia bolted at the sound of a 2-stroke engine. I got her stopped, but tried to get off before I had her calmed down. She bolted again mid-dismount, and I came off like I was in an ejection seat. 53 weeks later, I still have some pain where I landed back first on some rocks, but there were 18 inch jagged rocks just a foot away from where I hit.
It was a good reminder of my mortality!
We have established that Mary is not dead. Catholicism teaches that prayer to Mary is effective. Mary leads to Christ. It is advisable to pray to Mary. And the authority for this is Christ Himself. Is all of this correct?
It’s more than just correct.
It’s true.
LOL
How does Christ manifest the fact that Mary is not dead?
There are NO clearer verses than these:That Scripture IS quite beautiful.Joh 1:12-3 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
It just does nothing to to preclude or deny our God-given gift of free will.
As for clearer verses, John 3:16-7 is clearer:
16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.
Either you believe in eternal life or not, counselor.
Ok...why the “object lesson”...to Satan, to Job, to Job’s family and friends, to us today? Seems pointless if God gave Job the faith to begin with.
So Mary is not dead because all the redeemed are alive, true?
Haven’t taken it.
Most have prescribed hydrocap.
Which has been fine.
Thx for your caring.
“Warfield is saying that if someone held that our actions could be outside of God’s control, then that person is either wrong or there is no Biblical God.”
That assumes we are out of God’s control because we choose to be. But if God gives us a choice to make, and allows us to make it freely, that is within his will and his control.
“The key question to answer is whether God gives us the ability to choose against His will.”
Well, look at scripture. Does it clearly teach we are to repent? Yes. Does it clearly teach we are to believe? Yes. Are these presented as something we decide, decisions for us to make? Yes.
If God’s will is to have loving sons vs obedient robots, then giving us that choice is critical to his higher will. He may want us all to be saved, but if he desires sons more than he desires compelled obedience, then he has to give us choices - that we may screw up badly.
As an officer goes up in rank, one of the greatest challenges is to figure out how much freedom to give a subordinate. Too little, and you stifle growth. Too much, and you permit failure. And failure can mean death, or it may mean being fired for your subordinate’s actions.
We do it as men, with very imperfect knowledge. God doesn’t make mistakes, but he does give us freedom. When we choose to believe, or to harden our hearts, we are exercising the freedom he gave us, and are still subordinate to him. And those who reject Christ will find that out to their pain, while those who accept Christ find it to their joy.
Our choices. Not because I say so, but because scripture from Genesis to Revelation demonstrates it.
I’m not sure when you think I signed up for your piercing cross-examination.
Ultimately they do. Jesus calls out and says "follow me" and those who follow him do so by an act of their own free will (in accordance with the will of God). Those who do not follow him also do so in accordance with their own free will (and also in accordance with the the permissive and/or determinate will of God.)
The problem I see with some who profess to be Calvinists is that they portray God as some kind of automaton computer that came pre-programed to do whatever it ultimately does. They seem to deny that God put any thought into his own eternal plans or that he considered anything other than the plan that is in effect. They also tend to portray man in the same way, a sort of automaton that goes through life without any independent thought or action and that all a man does is directed by a pre-programmed set of instructions that cause man to automatically do whatever he does without exerting any control whatsoever over his own actions.
Now maybe that is not the picture of God and man that you wish to portray, and I suspect it is not the God that you believe in. Nevertheless a strict unwavering and unbending adherence to the doctrines of Calvinism will paint that picture of God in the minds of many.
By discounting entirely the idea that things are predestined and ordained in accordance with the infinite foreknowledge of God and insisting that God is fully in direct determined control of every single thing that ever happens and that man has no free will at all, you cannot escape the accusation that you have made man into nothing more than a Robot, pre-programmed to go through life doing the determined will of God, even when he is murdering children.
Surely God knows everything that is going to happen and when it occurs it is within the permissive or determined will of God. Why he saves one person and not the other is entirely up to God and we don't know why. But he has his reasons, and we can't say what they aren't any more than we can say what they are.
Too far the other direction. Of course Christians believe in predestination. It's a biblical teaching. Romans 8:28 - "those He foreknew, He predestined..."
Just trying to understand your point. If you don’t want to answer that is fine.
“The Arminian doesn’t really believe in the totality of Fall nor its aftermath or in the Scripture you just paraphrased with skepticism.”
It would be better manners not to ascribe motive to my quotes. However, I’m not strictly an Arminian, and I quoted it, not with skepticism, but as needing other scripture to get the big picture.
The section in between the lines below gives some other descriptions of our state as fallen men:
Are we ‘dead in sin?
Jhn 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
1Pe 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
Anything else? Slaves or bondservants
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Blind
Mat 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’
Mat 23:17 “You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?
Mat 23:19 “You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Mat 23:24 “You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Mat 23:26 “You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Rom 2:19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
Other
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mar 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Phl 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
If you are going to base your theology on the certainty that we were DEAD, then it is odd that Jesus spoke of us as ill, and Peter spoke of us as blind, and Paul spoke of us as children of wrath.
Scripture makes more sense if one reads all of it, and doesn’t glom on to a half dozen verses, and try to make the rest of scripture conform to them alone.
“The Arminian agrees with Rome that men’s own pious actions are the determining factor in their salvation.”
No, he doesn’t. Which is why I don’t believe you’ve read Arminius, nor attempted to understand his thought. For review for you, or for anyone interested in what Arminius and his followers thought on ‘total depravity’:
Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”
As for the link & info you then posted - what does that have to do with anything under discussion? If you want to know what Baptists believe about the power of the state, here it is (Southern Baptist Convention):
“God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. Church and state should be separate. The state owes to every church protection and full freedom in the pursuit of its spiritual ends. In providing for such freedom no ecclesiastical group or denomination should be favored by the state more than others. Civil government being ordained of God, it is the duty of Christians to render loyal obedience thereto in all things not contrary to the revealed will of God. The church should not resort to the civil power to carry on its work. The gospel of Christ contemplates spiritual means alone for the pursuit of its ends. The state has no right to impose penalties for religious opinions of any kind. The state has no right to impose taxes for the support of any form of religion. A free church in a free state is the Christian ideal, and this implies the right of free and unhindered access to God on the part of all men, and the right to form and propagate opinions in the sphere of religion without interference by the civil power.”
As a Baptist, I find it very odd to have a follower of Calvin blast me for supporting state churches. I’m a Baptist, not an Arminian - although I agree with Arminius on a number of issues. For anyone interested in the SBC, Calvin & Arminius, there is some good reading found here:
I’ll also point out that one of the chief supporters of Arminius was executed 4 days after the Synod of Dort (100% Calvinists) declared Arminians to be heretics.
Oh, 10-4. The fun part is drawing the fine lines. Coarse lines get coarse responses.
Heck, I’ll rush in where the rest of the fools fear to tread.
Sure, the redeemed are alive.
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